HomeMy WebLinkAbout1979-05-29; City Council; 910-18; Community Swimming PoolCITY OF CARL.SBAD
AGENDA BILL NO. 910 - Supplement #18
DATE: Mav 29, 1979 I
Initial : II
Dept. Head
c. Atty
DEPARTMENT: Publ ic Works C. Mgr. ' R,
2
SUBJECT : COMMUNITY SWIMMING POOL - REPORT ON VALUE ENGINEERING RECOMMENDATION
AND FEASIBILITY OF SOLAR SYSTEM
STATEMENT OF THE MATTER
The idea of a community swimming pool commenced in March, 1962. Since that time a tre-
mendous amount of effort has been expended by many people to get the project moving.
In January, 1979, a team of experts was brought together to review the pool architect's 90% drawings to analyze the functional requirements of the pool complex for the pur- pose of achievinq the essential functions of the lowest total costs over the life of the project. by staff. The Value Engineering Team's report has been subject to extensive review
EXHIBITS -.
1. Publ ic Works Administrator's memorandum dated May 24, 1979.
2. Value Engineering Workshop Prel iminary Report
3. A Preliminary Study of the Feasibility of Solar Energy Application to a Community
Swim Complex in the City of Carlsbad, California
4. Review of Carlsbad Swimming Pool Solar System
5. Status of Value Engineering Recommendations
6. Pool Chronology
RECOMMENDAT ION
That Council direct City staff as to what action to follow concerning the completion of
the pool design and the use of a solar system.
Council Action
5-29-79 See Minutes for discussion and Council direction.
MEMORANDUM
TO: City Manager
FROM: Public Works Administrator
DATE : May 24, 1979
SUBJECT: COMMUNITY SWIMMING POOL - REPORT ON VALUE ENGINEER- ING RECOMMENDATIONS AND FEASIBILITY OF SOLAR SYSTEM
An extensive review of the value engineering recommendations and the feasibility of a solar system for the community swim- ming pool has been conducted. In December, 1978, the pool architect, Kammeyer Lynch 6 Partners, Inc., conditionally ap-
proved the attached value engineering study of the 90% pool plans and provided a recently prepared solar feasibility study for the City. This material, with other pertinent information, was provided to the members of the Value Engineering Team (VET) for their review prior to their scheduled meeting.
On January 17, 1979, the VET met for eight hours for the pur- pose of analyzing the functional requirements of the commu- nity swimming pool complex to achieve the essential functions at the lowest total costs over the life of the project. The
team soon realized that it was necessary to also conduct a de- sign review. On January 22, 1979, the VET leader, Ed Ebright, gave a verbal presentation and written report to City staff. A copy of the report was sent to the architect. City staff met on January 24, 1979 to discuss the report. A copy of staff's comments and recommendations was provided to the
architect on February 1, 1979. Staff has met with the archi- tect twice, had a number of telephone conversations and ex- changed numerous letters and documents since the VET meeting. To date, all but a few of the recommendations have been re- solved.
The VET reviewed the solar feasibility study provided by the architect. view of the study.
In addition, one member of the VET provided a re-
It is recommended that Council, after reviewing the primary solar study, the value engineering critique and the attached summary of solar reports, give direction to staff concerning the nature and extent of solar heating systems to be included in the project.
c kb man. L P.E.
Public Works AdmiAi s trator
RAB:JNE:VEB
At t achm en t
SUMMARY OF SOLAR REPORTS
This summary report is based on an analyses of two docu- ments, the first entitled, "A Prelininary Study of the Feasi- bility of Solar Energy Application to a Community Swimming Complex in the City of Carlsbad, California,'' prepared in De-
cember, 1978, by McCaughey and Smith Energy Associates, Inc. The second document is a letter dated January 15, 1979 from Great Western Solar Corporation.
The following information has been extracted from the referenced documents and is summarized here. It is used in the analyses to follow.
BASIC INFORMATION
Two types of solar collectors were analyzed in the ref- erences.
Type I collectors are single-glazed with an absorber hav- ing copper waterways and a non-selective black coating.o This type of collector is capable of heating water up to 125 F. Its installed cost is estimated to be approximately $23.50 per square foot.
Type I1 collectors are made of black pastic and are un- glgzed. 85 F. Installed cost is approximately $3.50 per square foot. They are capable of heating water to approximately
Two uses for solar heated water were analyzed, the first being domestic hot water.
would have to be at approximately 115 F. facility would use from 3,000 to 7,500 gallons of 115 F. water per day. The second use of solar heated water would be for pool heating and in this analysis the pool was assumed to have a 12,000 square foot surface with a capacity of 570,000 gallons of water. Analysis of heating loss from pool indicated that up to 40% of the heat lost from the pool could be eliminated by the use of a pool cover in place from 16 to 18 hours per day.
It was assgmed domestic hot water The swimmigg pool
The primary report prepared for the architect recommends the use of 3,320 square feet (approximately 28% of the pool area) of Type I1 panels laid flat on the roof of the main build- ing only. Theseopanels are capable of heating domestic water to approximately 85 F. The estimated installation cost would be $27,000. The pay-back period on investment would be 8% years. The system's life is estimated to be 20 years with approximately $150 per year required for maintenance of the system.
My analysis of this report leads me to believe the param- eters assumed by, or assigned to, the author of the report were: (1) The solar heating collection system was to be as unobtru- sive as possible; therefore, limited to the roof of the main building. This fact limited the square footage of solar panels
- 2-
that could be applied to the system. (2) The system should be designed to maximize return on investment; therefore, capi-
tal costs would have to be held to a minimum and system effi- ciency sacrificed.
The Great Western Solar letter was a critique of the recommendations contained in the primary report. They point- ed out that the recommended system comprised less than 28% of the square footage of the pool surface and suggested that a
minimum figure that should be considered would be 50%. They also suggested that sloping the solar collectors would be more
efficient to collecting energy and would provide for drainage of the solar panels during months when freeze cycles were likely to occur. They acknowledged the recommendations in the primary report might be valid if the dollar limitations as- signed to the capital expenditure were limited. They recommend- ed increasing the square footage of solar collection panels to equal the square footage of the pool. This would necessitate the use of other than the main building as a mounting area for the solar panels. They suggest using the north parking lot
area. They further suggest that the main building roof be used to house domestic hot water solar panels only. This would necessitate mounting from 6,000 to 12,000 square feet of solar panels elsewhere on the site.
It is my conclusion that the critique letter ignored any constraints and sought to optimize solar use within the facili- ty. This is a proper and legitimate use for a value engineer- ing review.
COMMENT
If consideration is given to increasing the amount of solar use in the project to include domestic hot water as well as pool heating, the resultant system would be somewhat less than the combination of the domestic hot water only and the
pool heating only systems; that is to say, during the winter months more energy is required to heat the pool but less ener- gy is required to heat domestic hot water because of the small-
er number of showers taken per day whereas during the summer less energy is required for the pool but because of the increased number of showers more energy is required in the domestic hot wa t e r s y s t em.
OPTIONS
Architect's Recommendations - Pool heating only; 3,320 square feet of Type I1 solar collectors estimated cost $30,000.
Comment - Would require more use of gas-fired boiler for pool heating and use of hot water heater use for domestic hot water system.
-3-
Value Engineering Recommendation - Suggest minimum 50% of pool square footage in solar panels but recommend 100% of pool square footage in solar panels. Recommend domestic hot water system to be on roof of main building.
Comments - Would require design modifciations to provide for mounting area of the additional panels and to provide for revised hot water systems (boiler,hot water heater, etc.). Would result in delay of completion of plans. Estimated cost of system - approximately $250,000.
0 tions - Council could select combinations of above varia- tions + e basic determination that Council must make at this time regards the acceptability of mounting solar collectors on other than the roofs of the project's buildings.
Comments - Non-building mounted collectors have been used at Camp Pendleton. They have been reported to be unsatisfactory in general use.
Staff Recommendation - Regardless of determination made on solar system, staff recommends includsion of pool cover in the project-. Using figures contained in the primsry solar report, a pool cover would save 60,000 therms per year at an estimated
cost of $11,000. The pool cover would pay for itself in saved energy costs in less than one year.
* CARISBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX *
VALUE ENGINEERING WORKSHOP
PRELIMINARY PEPORT
POOL: 1. Eliminate #6 reinforcing bars and instead use a multiple number of smaller bars.
Reason: Most swimming pools use stock lengths,therefore it'is
difficult to bend #6 bars in field/ Cost Savings.
2. Improper shape at junction of concrete floor and gunite
Change to larger radius.
walls. This is not a normal construction method used.
Reason: Cost Savings.
3. Eliminate lane-line storage in surge gutter.
Reason: Expensive and troublesome.
4. Change shallow end from a depth of four feet to three and three and one-half feet.
Reason: A four foot depth elimates the use by most sixth graders and down, which is approximately 90% of potential pool users.
Note: The only limitation in doing this is that the potent- ial of hosting an Olympic Meet is eliminated. Also,
anything above a regional swim meet (ex: - Nationals)
requires a warm-up pool.
5. Eliminate the five foot width on entrance step, and in-
stead make all tread widths 14".
Reason: Five foot steps make it impractical for teaching.
Creates a wading area.
Cost Savings.
6. change deep end of pool (under diving boards) from 11'6'' to a minimum of 12' but a recommended 13'.
Reason: 12' is required for competitive diving PHENA (Inter-
national Organization for Diving) rules call for
13'6" and most diving pools are 13'6" surface.
7. change lane lines from tile.to surface painted.
Reason: Substantial cost savings. Tile is a haven for algae problems, .
Painted lines will have to be repainted a minimun of every 2 years, but more likely 3 to 4 years.
Page 2
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
i
i
Note: Every 2-3 years the pool has to be drained anyway
because of:
a) salt build up in the water which gives a bad taste.
b) to acid scrub the pool to remove any stains from
cast iron,
Note: If tile remains, it is illegal to use 12" lane lines. Most pools use 10" lane lines (10 x 10 tiles),
8. Water inlets shall be located at shallow end of pool and at handicap ramp.
Reason: To help circulate water to prevent algae buildup in
potential sensitive areas.
9. Line-up water inlets on lane lines.
R?ason: .Maintenance and aesthetics.
10. Gutter piping system as shown should be eliminated, and replaced with a gutter system having 4-6 inlets at strategic locations around the perimeter of the pool,
Reason: System shown is not being used today. Piping sizes are inadequate and will not perform
reliably , Cost Savings.
11. Water Polo field should be turned the other way using
the 25 yard distance between the two sides of the pool.
Reason: Creates more versatility in the use of the pool.
As shown on the drawing the one net is at a water depth of 5'4" which is too shallow.
12. If drain lines on bottom of pool are cast iron, make sure that the fittings are epoxied.
Reason: To prevent cast iron stains on the pool,
13, Eliminate all cast iron pool piping and instead use FVC
piping .
!
I
Reason: Substantial cost. savings, Better maintainability.
14. Eliminate approximately 50% of underwater pool lights-
R2ason: Lighting as shown is the AAU minimum based on indoor pools. Most community pools are served with 1 watt/square ft,
of pool surface for night swimming.
Cost Savings I
Note: Location of underwater pool lights must not be located at the end of lane lines. Brass rings should be used
instead of chrome plated rings around all underwater pool lights.
Page 3
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
15- Investigate the change of shape of the pool to a modified 11~11 shape,
Reason: More poo1,area for the same price as the pool shown in the drawings. More 25 yard lanes for swimming,
16. Diving boards should not be facing west into the after-
noon sun as shown on the drawings.
Reason: Very dangerous.
Note: Most lawsuits concerning swimming pools are directly
related to diving boards and diving board areas.
boards to the end of the 50-meterpool. In so doing,
construction costs of deep water side walls could
be reduced as much as $5,000.00. And during 50-meter
swim competition, the diving boards cd.uld be hinged backwards.
Note: Investigate the possibility of re-locating the diving
.. Page 4
CAFUSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
POOL MECHANICAL & ELECTRICAL
1. Eliminate all cast iron piping and instead use PVC with
flange fittings.
Reason: Substantial. cost savings.
2. Investigate the use of a filter vacuum system instead of of a pressure system.
Reason: The filter system as shown is difficult to operate,
maintain, and service. Cost Savings.
Note: If the vacuum system is combined with the surge chamber, it would be possible to eliminate piping and gravity flowcould be used into the surge chamber.
3. Investigate the use of a 2-pump pool pump system instead of
the one pump.
Reason: For emergency use.
Longer filtration at one-half the cost.
4. Mechanical room should have a physical covering.
Reason: Protection from the elements.
5. The strainer located in the surge pit should not be per-
forated stainless steel but instead, it should be perforated
PVC -
Reason: Substantial cost savings.
6. In the filter room, the slurry, chlorine booster, etc. should be interlocked into the main pump.
Reason: If the main pump cuts off for some reason, everything else is automically cut off.
7. Re-locate solenoid valve along with the chlorinator.
Reason: If not done the chlorinator will be non-operational after the first 6 months.
8. Investigate the feasibility of a heat exchange instead
of a direct fire boiler.
Reason: Capital cost of heat exchange costs more, but there
would be operational cost savings.
9. Investigate the possibility of boiler conversion,
Reason: To alleviate a potential gas shortage problem, The
cost would be approximately $2,000 plus the cost of
the storage tank,
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
I
10. Mechanical technical errors on the drawings:
a. Boiler control shown on wrong side of boiler.
b.
C.
d-
e.
f.
g- h. i.
j-
k.
1.
A 6" 3-way valve is shown which is strictly a waste of
money (cost savings).
Alkalyzing should be with caustic soda instead of soda ash. (Cost Savings)
Caustic soda and chlorine should not be injected at the same location.
Chlorine tanks setting in the wrong direction. Investigate the possibility of not being able to use
1 ton chlorine cylinders. (The reason they are now
only distributed by one firm. )
Chlorine gas cannot pass through copper tubing. Provide chlorine scale ---- STATE LAW.
Venting of chlorine cylinders should not be off of the
tanks, but off of the chlorinators.
Need manifold system for the standby use of 150 lb. chlorine tanks. Cannot have door leading from chlorine room to mechanical room.
Do not provide sloped loading dock at chlorine room.
11. Eliminate part'itions in mechanical room.
Reason: No function.
Cost Savings.
12. Eliminate wasted areas in mechanical room.
Reason: Cost Savings.
SOLAR ENERGY
1. Investigate the just completed solar system for the swim-
ming pool at Camp Pendelton.
2. The roof of the locker room building is of insufficient area
to adequately handle the area requirements of the solar pan- els- Therefore, investigate the feasibility of ground moun-
ted units.
3. Investigate the possibility of having a solar system desig-
ned by an outside firm and the construction handled by City
maintenance crews ---substantial cost savings.
4. Realistic price for an effective solar system to heat the
swimming pool water -- $93,000.
POOL DECK
1. Reduce the square footage of concrete deck area.
Reason: Most of the deck area as shown will not be utilized,
Cost Savings.
. ,. - 1. page 0
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
Of the pool building and at the same time locate the
pool closer to the pool building.
Note: The maximum distance behind a pool to a physical barrier can be 20'.
2. Provide direct vehicular access to pool deck.
Reason: For emergency situations.
Maintenance of landscaped areas.
3. Provide secondary access to bleachers that is located
directly adjacent to the bleachers.
Reason: TO minimize spectator circulation from main entry
to bleacher area.
4. Bleachers shall be located in a separated ares from the pool deck area by the use of a low chain link fence.
Reason: Crowd control,' especially during competitive meets.
5. Provide outside storage under canopy that is surrounded by a chain link fence.
Reason: Storage of lane lines, pool cover, etc-
6. Provide 220V outlets around pool, possibly located,.at the
base of the power poles around the deep areas of the pool.
Reason: For a pool vacuum system.
7. Provide security night lighting around pool..
8. Control switches for underwater deck lights and deck lights shall be located somewhere on the pool deck area in a lock- able box.
Reason: Ease of operation.
9. Provide joint standards for pool deck lights and parking lights in areas where feasible.
Reason : Cost Savings.
10. Eliminate all turf areas around swimming pool deck.
Reason: Maintenance problems.
PARKING LOTS :
1. Eliminate entire parking lot to the north side of the pool. c omp 1 ex.
Reason: Based on pools in operation in the San Diego County
area it was determined that there will not be enough cars at any one time to require construction of the Parking lot to the north of the pool complex.
CARLSBAD COJ!IMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
2. Pedestrian drop-off area shall be paved in asphalt instead
of textured concrete.
Reason: Cost Savings.
3, Bike parking area shall be surfaced with asphalt and the
2’8” wall shall be eliminated.
Reason: Cost Savings.
4. The area of the bike parking area can be reduced substant- ially.
Reason: It was found that the area was oversized in relation to the number of bikes that will be parked there at any one time.
POOL WALL:
1, Eliminate the concrete block wall on the South, West and North sides of th.2 pool and replace with chain link fence and windscreen.
Reason: Substantial Cost Savings.
Visual security from outside can be achieved with chain
link fencing. Chain link fence would provide general spectator viewing
from outside,
POOL BUILDING:
1- Consolidate two storage rooms into one large storage area.
Reason: Cost Savings. In order to store equipment such as canoes, sailboats,
etc., there will have to be psovkded a large storage
area-
2. The concession stand shall have service access to the outside with the possibility of using the zxisting storage room on the southwest corner as a concession area and then elimin- ating the existing concession stand area-
Reason : Cost Savings.
3. Eliminate canopy on pool side of building,
Reason: Cost Savings.
4. Investigate the possibility of using an alternative block for use on the building exterior.
Reason: Cost Savings.
5. The last place of exit from building locker rooms to the pool deck should not be past the toilets, but instead should
be by a check person and showers.
Reason: Operational control.
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
I
!
i
6. Eliminate the open-air locker room concept.
Reason: Complex is located much too close to the ocean.
Hanky-panky problems of kids throwing rocks through screen4 opening in ceiling.
7, Since locker room are shown as open-air, the radiant heater
in the ceiling space should be eliminated, .
Reason: Cost Savings.
Most of the heat will be carried to the outside with- out the ugers feeling the effects of the heat:+d air.
8, Pr0vid.t large screened-in partitions between baggage rooms and locker rooms.
Reason: Visual control.
9. In general, there are a number of wasted areas in the locker rooms, that in some ar2as do not have any visual supervision,
These areas should be .?liminated.
Reason: Elimination of potential "scr.?w-of f" areas .:for kids.
Cost Savings.
10,'Eliminate all.planter areas in locker rooms.
R:?ason: NO apparznt function,
Cost Savings,
11. Eliminate turnstiles into locker rooms and re-locate entrance to lockzr rooms in ralation to person sitting at the front desk.
Reason: Cost Savings.
By re-locating the entrance to the locker rooms, better visual control by the desk person can be ache- ived -
12. Eliminate guard screens in locker rooms.
Reason: No function and cost savings.
13. Eliminate outlets over vanities.
R,uason: Potentially dangerous areas. Cost Savings.
14, Eliminate restrooms adjacent to hallway that will be used for staff.
Reason: Cost Savings.
15. Eliminate first-aid room or combine the first-aid room
with the classroom area.
Reason: Cost Savings ,
CARLSBAD COMMUNITY SWIMMING COMPLEX
16. Manager's office should be' re-located so that h? can be in constant touch with the front desk, the locker rooms,
and thz pool area. Th:? manager's office should also have direct access to the locker rooms.
Reason: There art? constant problems that arise where the manager must be in direct touch with the front dcsk person. Elimination of intercom system.
Note: The potential of th? manager being ab12 to run the wholz
pool building by himself should be investigated.
17. There should be provided a set of openable and closeable.
doors at the front entry (behind the rool-up door)
Reason: During winter months, the p2rson at the front desk
will be exposed to the cold outside air.
18. Glass windows in entryway should be eliminated.
Reason: Prone to breakage by vandals.
19. All lights throughout building should bt? fluorescent. I
Reason: Cost Savings.
..
Page 10
EVALUATION SUMMARY
The Value Engineering Wdrkshop arrived at a revised construction cost estimate for the Community Swimming complex of:
$1,500,000 - - $1,700,000
It was also the consensus of opinion that with the proposed
recommendations applied to the community Swimming Complex, the City of Carlsbad would be able to have the SwimmJng complex constructed for the budgeted amount of:
$1,200,000
The architectural firm that is designing the Commuizity Swimming
Complex must now decide what to do with these recommendations and
then proceed to go back and meet with the appropriate groups from the City of Carlsbad, such as the Parks and Recreation Commission,
the Parks and Recreation Staff, CUSD school Board, and the City
of Carlsbad Staff. These various groups in conjuction with the
architects and in conjunction with the people who are aware of
pool related problems must sit down and decide what the basic
needs are for this Community Swimming complex, so that the Complex can be built for the budgeted amount.
Much groundwork that hasn't been done must be done for the project
to now move ahead.
Value Engineering Cqor inator J
. ',. ._
.-
-/" c"
A Pl33LININARY STUDY OF THE EZASIBILSTY OF -
. SOLAR ENERGY APPLICATION TO
._
1
L i
A COMMUJ!JITY SWIM COMPLEX
IN-THE CITY OF CARL,SBAD, CALIFORNIA
..
-. SUBNITTED t
. DECEMBER 6, 1978 .
. PREPARED BY:
McCAUGHEY & SMITH ENERGY ASSOCIATES, IEC.
130 CENTENNIAL WAY
TUSTIN, CALIFORNIA 92680
t
.-
I
.. -
..
t ..
A PRELiMINARY STUDY OF THE FEASIBILITY OF
SOLAR ENERGY APPLICATION TO .
A COi’riMUNITY SWIM COMPLEX ”
IN THE CITY OF CARISBAD, CALIFORNIA
..
..
DECEMBER 6, 1978
PREPARED FOR;
.. BAUM gt ASSOCIATES
- 17815 SKY PARK CIRCLE -.
IRVINE, CALIFORNIA 92707
PREPAWD BY:
McCAUGHEY & SMITH ENERGY ASSOCIATES, IKC..
c
.I ,- 130 CENTENNIAL WAY
..
5‘; TUSTIN, CALIFoRNIA 92680
APPROVED BY;.
President I
I
I I.
,
* 5 ..
_. *. '
TABLE OF CONTErJTS '
Page
1
2
3
4
4
5
6
7
Title' Section
1.
2. '
3.
..
Introduction...............................
Summary.. .................................
Discussion..............................*.
Climat~. ....................................
Solar collectors...............^....... ...
Architecture..,'......*. ...................
-
Analysis:.......... .......................
3-1
3.2
3.3,
3.4
3.4.1
..
Ass~ptions..... ............................
. 8
10
3.4.2
, 3.4.3
4.
Return-on-Investment. .....................
Payback.........................* ..........
Conclusions and Recommendations ...........
c* I . ., References. ............................... 12
13
Pool Heating Cost Estimate
DKW Heating System Supporting Data
Appendix A
Appendix B
Appendix C
c
c';
Solar pool Heating Information .
..
LIST OF TABLISS AND FIGUFES
Table
S
Figure
I
Pool Losses'. ....................... t.... .... 9
3.1
I . -- -. i
.\ ! '1. INTRODUCTION
This study was prepared to investigate the feasibility of -
applying solar energy to heat domestic hot water (DHW) for -.
..
showers and to heat'pool water for a new community swim com-
plex planned for construction in Carlsbad, California. In
the interest of time. the study was prepared based on only
partial data involving pro jeetions of utility consumption,
and usage of the complex, Therefore, results are prelimi-
nary but are believed to be sufficiently accurate to in-
dicate trends and a most favorable approach to solar energy
application. Should a decision be made favoring the use
of-solar energy this study should be updated to determine
optimum-area of collectors, type of controls and more
accurate costing .
The swim complex-is located about a mile inland from the
coast and adjacent to a high school. It will be open to
the public the f'ull twelve months of the'year and will -* also
be used by the school for both physical education.classes
I -
I and for competitive events during the normal school year.
The pool is a fifty meter-length pool suitable for Olympic-
class events.
Since the complex is located in a residential neighborhood
the importance of aesthetic 'values must be stressed.
making this study every consideration was given to incor-
porating a solar system which would be both,cost effective
and unobtrusive to the architecture of the facility. The
purpose of the study was to determine, in terms of a pre-
liminary estimate, if a solar system would be both eco-
nomical and architecturally acceptable in providing energy
to assist in heating DHW for showers and/or heating water
for the swimming pool.
In
-
..
..
1
2. SUMMARY
DHVJ and pool heating needs were considered both individually
and in a combined system. It was found that a solar energy
system devoted to pool heating only was most cost-effective
in this case, The system recommended would consist of 3,320
square feet of unglazed plastic' solar collectors mounted
flat on the roof of the shower house. The installed cost
'C
.
. is estimated to be $2'7,000, complete. 'The system - recommended,
based on this preliminary study, would save an estimated
5,600 therms of energy per year. It would have a payback
of 8.5 years and would provide a return-on-investment of 16
percent' over its useful life.
' ' -_' --= 4:s
-. ..
.
..
.. .
.. .. ..
2
. . ..
3. .'I'
..
.-
f €
i DISCUSS I0 N ..
1 The most effective use of soLar energy is normally for DHW
heating such as water for showers, .in this case, This is
because year-around usage and relatively low temperatures
combine to give highest utilization ofthe solar equipment
plus high collector efficiency. Swimming pools can offer
an even more attractive situation for solar energy appli-
cation provided the pool is used over a high percentage
of the year and climate is moderate. Such is the case in
the Carlsbad Swim Complex.
D?V heating requires water temperatures. of about 125*F.
Solar collectors should be of metal and glazed with a single
light of tempered glass.
a preheat storage: tank upstream of the conventional hot
water tank.
Coflectors for pool heating are best operated <t a"
--
DHCJ systems also should incluae
.
temperature oniy slightly above pool water tempera-
ture, say 85OF. Such collectors can be unglazed and, if .
- properly selected, made of plastic, as can the connecting
piping.
ctoes 'not require a separate storage tank, 'such storage
being supplied by the pool itseif, Also, since thermal
losses through the piping will be low at pool water tem-
that a solar system f0r.a pool can collect more energy,
under certain conditions, per dollar invested than can one
designed for heating shower water. Either a DHW system or
a pool heating system will require a full backup heating
system if reliable heating throughout the year is desired,
In the case of the swim complex a cqmparison between shower
and pool water heating has been made,
system is more cost 'effective and is considered to be
aesthetically acceptable.
A solar system used for heating only pool water ;
5, .. -
s';
0 peratures, piping will be uninsulated. The net result is
.
.-
The pool heating
Because of different temperature
..
2
t
! i.
.. . regimes a combined DHW and pool heating system would not be
practical in the case uvder study. Also, since the area avail-
able for collectors is already insufficient to fulfill a”iarge
percentage of the pool heating .requirement, separate, addi-
tional heating capability for. shower water should not be
included .
.. . -. 3.1 CLIMATE
‘.
Data available for San Diego/La Jolla was used-in develop-
-’
ing a climate model for Carlsbad. An average wind velocity
of 7 mph was assumed.
inland the complex will be subjected to less breeze and less
fog or overcast than if located directly on the coast,
establishing a climate model the methods and data available
from references (a)’ and (b) , respectively were used.
Being located approximately a mile
In
3 2 SOLAR, COLLECTO.RS
’ 5: A *wide variety .of solar collectors are available. It is
essential that these be of the proper type and of proven
.- .
c’; .
reliability, Collectors for either DHi? or pool heating at
the complex should be of the flat plate variety and should
* be eitherr
Type 1 - single glazed with an absorber having coppee black coating waterways and a non-selective ’.
. Type 2 - black plastic ..
The combination of glazing and insulation in Type 1 lowers
losses making this collector less sensitive to environmental
effects of wind and temperature and enables more efficient
operation at temperatures required for DHW or space heating.
Type 2 collectors are cheaper and potentially more efficient
at the low temperatures necessary for pool heating. How-
ever, losses are highly influenced by ambient conditions,
as are losses from. the pool. itself, It is impossible
1
4
..
. ..
. 3.3
i*;.
..
. :. .
..
to maintain comfor$able pool temperatures all year with a solar
system alone4 however, the system can make a substantial
contribution to reducing the overall needs for fossile
ael.
is used as assumed'in this report.
For purposes of'. this study collectors produced by PPG and
Solar Energy Research were assumed for..Types 1 and 2 rc-
spectively as representative - of those suitable -for this
application. There are other good quality collectors on
the market.
and has recent pricing data,
This is particularly true .in cases where a pool cover
8
.
However, MSEA is familiar with these collectors
ARCHITECTUIiE
The dominant feature of most any solar system is its group
of solar collectors, This is normally the most'costly item .
and often the most visible . While early collectors :tended
to be of questionable quality the industry has advanced to
the pbin-t where there are several collectors available of
proven reliability and which are attractive in' appearance.
Nonetheless., it is often desired to make the collector
subsystem as unobtrusive as possible, * ..
In the present case, should a system Be selected for shower
water heating close attention must be given to building
architecture combined with collector tilt and supporting
structure. Collectors would be of Type 1 (metal, glazed) ,
Tilt; angle has a strong influence on energy collected per
square foot of panel; however, tilt must be low enough to
preclude adverse reflections and to integrate architecturally
with the building.
advantageous to design a sawtooth roof for direct collector
support; at the proper angle,
For new construction it is often found
..
f'
i
Wind and dead weight loads must, of course, be considered.
The latter will normally add 6 to 8 psf directly beneath
the collector area: .
Although Type 1 collectors can be used for pool heating
alone,Type 2 (plastic) collectors are recommended in this
. case. . Sufficient data is available to indicate that the
lifetime of these collectors, if carefully chosen from
proven brands, will be consistent will -good economics.
Also, Type 2 collectors are low enough in cost so that they
can be mounted horizontally on a flat roof, accepting the
penalty of decreased performance due. to mounting at a non-
' optimum angle. This'makes the cost of supports and attach-
ments negligible and makes the collectors invisible from
street level. Since the collectors are horizontal and un- -
glazed there is no potential problem of adverse reflections
which must be accounted for.
Whatever collector is selected, the architect should, con-
sider integration with the building design to assure< that
roof areas are used most effectively and piping runs are
accommodated.
It is worth noting that a large community pool in the City
of Santa Clara, California uses solar esergy extensively.
' The solar'collectors appear as an attractive part of the
facility. (See Appendix C)
3-4 ANALYSIS ..
A computer-aided analysis of the application was made using
a proprietary program developed by MSEA in which loads,
climate and cost factors are combined to provide life cycle
costs. These combine the methods and data of the references
listed along with utilities costs and, in this case, approxi- __ mations for loads and usage.
..
.
i. __ ____--_- -...-
While first-costs can be- derived quite accurately, the nature
of life cycle costing requires projecting many economic
factors which have a high degree of uncertainty.
these factors include fUel price 'escalation and inflation.
While knowledgeable sources are unanimots in projecting
increases for both, the range of these projections varies
widely. It is essential to bear in minb, therefore, that
life cycle costing is most valuable in predicting trends
rather than in establishing absolute values . Estimates
for solar energy collected and used are based on such things
as documented hardware test data and historical weather
data.
of long-term savings in terms of thermal units.
value of these savings in terms of economic factors such
as return-on-investment (ROI) and -payback, one can only
speculate .
.
As foremost,
- ..._ _._
Therefore, analysis should provide a good indication
As to the
- --
3.4.1 Assumptions
The following is a list of assumptions as used in this
studyt
System life
Base price of natural gas
Base price of electricity
Escalation
Y gas
electricity
. Inflation
Tax credit
Maintenance
(5 of installed cost escalated at ?$/year)
9
** 1 therm = 100,000 Btu
As provided by U.S. Army Corps of study of swimming pool heating.
..
20. years
$.25/therm* -
$ .05/kwh
Engineers for a recent
.-
\ We were informed that a pool cover would be installed.
was assumed, for this preliminary study, that this was in
place from 16 to 18 hours/day.
extremely important since evaporation and convection losses
are the largest contributors to heating demand.
was assumed to contain 570,000 gallons of water and to
cover an area of 12,000 square feet.
It
The use of a pool cover is
The pool
..
Table I presents pool
losses for both the covered and uncovered case.
Shower use was assumed to vary from a maximum of'jOO/day in
August to 200/day in January and that the variation was
4
sinusoidal.
3.4.2 Return-on-Investment
..
The ROI is an index that considers the full economic life
of an investment and as such is ideally applied to solar
installations. In determining the ROI an economic life for
the project must be defined. Twecty years was select&d for
this analysis and zero salvage value is assumed. 'Next, the
cash flow associated with the project is generated, Here
the annual fuel saving provided by the solar package is
used to compute the annual. dollar savings. This amount in-
creases from year to year as fuel rates Lncrease.
' In addition to the annual savings offered by the solar in-
stallation there is an annual maintenance expense to be
accounted for. The annual maintenance is taken to be $$
of the project's total cost.
tenance and fuel expense there is a general inflation rate
of 7% per annum (assumed).
1ncl.uded in rates for main-
Having calculated cash flow for a given project the ROI is.
found by solving for the interest rate which produces a
zero net present. worth for any cash flow. The ROI is directly
comparable to the returns offered by:other forms of invest-
ment such as savings certificates. The ROT obtained for
.. .- .
i each of the systems considered is calculated as a function
of collector area.
In Figure 1 ROI is presented for a DHW system as a function
of collector area at various tilt angles.
collector optimum tilt is 20' to 40' with an area of 2,000
square feet. ROI is 9 percent. For. the pool heating case,
Type 2 collectors.are used yielding an ROI of 16 percent.
Only one area, 3,320 square feet, is shown with collectors
mowtted horizontally. Assumed lifetime in both cases was 20
years
Using a Type 1 .
-
3.4 . 3 Payback
Another index of economic performance is the payback period.
The payback period in this analysis is defined as the time
in years for annual'net savings to offset the initial in-
vestment. This index can be somewhat misleading in that
it does not consider the time value of money or the additional
. benefits which might result if the useful operating life is
..
I
..
longer €han the payback period.
8
Payback was calculated for both systems. For the optimum
(2,000 square feet) DW system
. for the pool heating case it is 8.5 years.
payback is 12 years while
4
..
LUCATIOI'J 2~- Consulting Engineers
4. CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMl!ENDATIONS . t
.. " t'
Based on the resulk of the study presented herein a solar
system featuring plastic collectors to heat pool water
appears to be cost effective and is recommended for "In-
clusion with the swim complex as part of the original
construction. Such a system, if properly integrated with
the building, would have little or no effect on the
aesthetics of the complex. An estimate fur such a system
was developed by MSEA in conjunction with Solar Research
Systems and is presented in Appendix A.
This recowendation is not without qualification and it is
further recommended that this study be upgraded to include
more detailed data particularly on loads and utilities costs.
s L
.
.12
..
!* 'S REFERENCES _.
a. E.P. French, "Deterministic Insolation Estimates for t Solar Energy Systems" as presented at Proc. of 12th SECEC, Washington, D.C., 1937. .
of Commerce, Environmental Science Services Administra- tion, June 1968.
ASHW Handbook & Product Directom, 1977 Fkdamentals, American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air- Conditioning Engineers, Inco 1977.
-_ b. Climatic Atlas of the United States, U.S. Department
C.
a. . Francis de Winter, "How to Design and Builci a Solar Swimming Pool Heater, '' Copper Development Association, Inc. 1974.
e. ' National Construction Estimator, Twenty-sixth Edition,
1978
..
Y ..
..
..
.. .. .. .. .. . ..
.-:
APPENDIX A
POOL HEATING COST ESTIMATE
I- ..
..
.
..
PROJECT NO. McCAUGHEY & Sl'diTH CL[ ENT W At *.I 1')
tt t *)* y*&4T. . DATE \;L /? 5 ENERGY ASSOCIATES DES,GNED
LOCATION 0 fib P"JI Consulting Engineers
PROJECT CHECKED
SUBJECT
k.&, 5 DATE \?- - OF
l. -=m
"
i
;.
i
!
I
I
i
w
0
N -. *
i
APPENDIX B
DW HEATING SYSTEM
SUPPORTING DATA
-.. I ... ..
RICHARD S.
5
. .( . LOS A&ELES
SAN DiEGO
P.O. BOX 26127, LOS ANGELES 90026
--1165 MORENA BLVD., SAN DlEGO 92110
PHONE (213) 483-3181
PHONE (714) 276-5552
IT EM
NO.
f. ..
QUAH. DESCRIPTION - PRI
EACH . -
264.
3 PMS /'.d "l49 (subiect to credit appro
BY
use make your Purchoso Order to
..
e
i '.
.
,!
..
.
-. .- :- -. .
--- --
*. ,
.._ .. .. .. . . ....
.. . . .. .. ~ .. -. .... - . , - .. .
. .. ..
.. ' ...
.I.
.. .
c
4'. '
..
'I 71 5'
. .. ... . -
\ . :-
* I. ...
'I . .a-
I
..
..
rz
.. ! ..
. .-* I ,)t ..
.%-
.
......
..
.- . - ,
/' ..
..
I
1
.. #. .. .I
I. .i
.. j{
tc, -. ..
c. .
.. . .. . .. .- .
..
F trt-0 3
c
c
r; , 2- . c
!
January 15, 1979
View land Coast zuc Lior~
4410 Glacier Avenue Suite 102 .;
San Diego, Calif. 92120 1-
\
Attention: Mr, Russ Sheldon
.-
Reference : . Review of Carlsbad Swimiing Fool Solar System
Great West'ern Solar Corporation' s Solar Engineering Consultants are happy
to assist you with the preliminary review of the Carlsbad Swiming Pool
design.
a functional solar system. .
*
of less than 28% of the pool surface area.
industry to install a minimum of 50% of the pool surface area.
*
roof, with no increase in pipe size.
* Flat solar systems do not perform during Noveriber, December, January,
and Febuary, when heating costs are'at their peak,
pressed to add more than one month to their "Free Swimming Season",
*
advisable to provide a control system with freeze protection.
The following coments should be helpful in the final design of
The proposed design recomends a solar system using a collect5or area
It is generally excepted in the
2
It ap2ear-s that more collector area than indicated can be placed on the
This system will be hard
Flat solar systems do not drain. Therefore, even in Carlsbad, it is
* Flat solar installations on a composition type roof can be a roofer's
niqhtrnare. The many penetrations and attachments should be reviewed by the
roofer and the bonding company, if applicable. (Provisions should be make
for the additional traffic on the roof, and also additional drains).. Don't
forget additional cost for routing the vents away from solar collector areas.
*
draining of the system as possible when Solar System is not in operation.
Drain the system into the - sump to remove the system pressure from the solar
collectors and the couplings to give them longer life-
Even though flat solar systems don't drain, do provide for as much
continued on Page 2
9255 CHESAPEAKE DRIVE, SAN DIEGO, CA. 92123 (7 14) 292-0298
. I -.
1. (c
Viewland Construction (con' t) January 15, 1979
Page 2
- * The architect has not taken into account the solar system head losses,
and the proposed solar system has no plans to use an auxilary punp for the
solar systen.
stcindzrils. (T~S architect and SQ~~K system designsrs shou2d cj~t t~'jetll0~
to determine the best method to handle the solar systen requirentnts, which
will best suit the overall system design. There are many options available
with a variety of features).
* Since the solar system has not been designed at this point, the details
cannot be reviewed.
'This must be corrected to meet CouRty Hftalch Department
An overall view of the project looks as if the City of CarLsbad,wants one
first class pool,
city make some of its energy decisions.
We hopesome of the following suggestions might help the
The "28%" flat system pro;?osed will hardly be noticed on the gas hill,
we have no idea what the budget is, we may not know- the intent of tli; Energy
Consultants analysis is.
the approach might be suitable-
approach was taken that "since solar collectors - can look bad, let us take the
present plans and find. a place to hide them!". Great Western Solar has mn
into this philosophy many times. GWS has found and proven that a solar heater
can be astecticly pleasing. It is such a large item in the project, it should
be part of the Basic Design, and not an after-thought!
Since
If they were straped with a definite price limit,
However, it seems as though the familiar
! ALTERNATIVE APPROACH:.
' How much energy can we save for the City of Carlsbad, without harming !
I (and maybe even improving) the astectic of the community or the swimming
. pqol.
Note: This approach takes special concern for solar collector rack design
and solar plumbing installation details-
Note: The following statements are made in general without performing eco-
nomic analysis on a specific system design.
continued on Page 3
i I
.- c ~ . >_.-
e L
m c.
J < -" i
..
\7iewlcmd Construction '(con' t) . .. - January -15, 1979
Page 3
There seems to be ample room on thi's project to install the optimum solar
system for this pool (a situation many pool owners desire), There is enough
space above either of the parking lots just north of the pol, to install
a COT,?? ~te "100";" solar system, nounted at the optinm inclination.
An optimm solar system would carry tha, vast majority of the pool's heating
requirements- Of course, with so much space available, there are many de-
sign alternatives that are suitable for an attrac9ive solar insthllation.
By looking forward a little, GWS would like to suggest that the City of'
Carlsbsd save the roof of the change moms to heat the showers, (remember
to provide space for solar hot water storage tanks).
As we are sure it is realized, the initial solar system cost will increase.
But, by choosing the optimum system there may be soxe initial cost decreases
(boiler size?) as well as many &sign and operating advantages.
The City of Carlsbad should look into this cost justifiable option for it
may mean an even shorter payback period, and/or higher returns an tbXr in-
vestment -
It has been our pleasure to assist Viewland Construction with this project.
If in the future Great FSestern Solar Corporation's Solar Engineering Cansul-
tants can be of any further assistance, please let us know.
.,
Chief Engineer
Solar Engineering Consnltants
Great Western Solar Corporation
TRA/j j
cc: R. Zlotoff (attachment)/Vicwland Construction .
J. Holder
B- Merwin
H. Slatcr
J. Smith
V. Souza
h M
L m n E
L a,
m
- -
6.
E>
h DM a,-
m- m U +a, om a3 t
*- a, rn 20 at
.- .-
c- t b3t mrom
-+ 0 p a,*- 0
0 t
0-0 ar mm * r- m mm a,- ..u\ -0 om a, 0- a, Lrm mt c m *- 0 3 .- Lt Ut m S K- >a, f --It 0) ma, L .- L am >K >
0) 0-I-
E ma,m Xnm
E o$
m m r
> m m
.-
t-, 0 0
N
a, E
a,
3
?I
P
- n
t
-0 K m
a, >
m K a,
X W
.-
a
K
a, m m L 0 t m
a, K
.-
.- -
I a, K* mt -a, t at +s ma t .- a, Em L -3 wm
.-
M
I K-
8-
e- -0 \ I Cd- t m-
IT - .-
t 0- 01 a, aa, >K .- ... m L- KO a,tr at t x 3 .- a, m3 6- in
m mL ala, tu mm KL m E *- r -t ax
cm
am -00 E t or
la, Lm 33 0 +a, c
.-
.-
tat
on Lc
at
-
IO
a- 0 xa
am n -- mt K ma, .- t 0 ra 0
LO 3 Bs -0 sm z o> u- a, ut cm (DE
e-
.- +
c tI
QK no
aa,
mu K Em
+a, L UT
Kt a, 0 3t 0
ea,
-c --h, ma,. r+t ma,
m L a, m 2
0 .- + .- 0 E*-- s *- mm 0-- a,- .-ma,Lm t e- s mtmmo * L r .- .- - I- .-a, at0 Ett >mo
*- 0 a, oz Q -nun E~I a >a, 3 -L o m'. I rt- sx E a*- a, L omFr-m
n N N \ M u - M
a, n
0 t
r t
a, U
m
-
n
E .- m a, U
r t
0
.-
U ra, v- K- rm -It m LK a, e- > ala,
mo En
YtL
mM *t- - a,\ N \K- N *- -73
--
...
=E ws -E M a- t -
N L a, >O at E Em mu Ym a,
arsr ut L 0 K*- 0 U 0 3+K E .- .- E a,- ouma,
am L'- E 0
u son
L L -.b .
-0 0- a, U- a,\ L+N m.- w m -- +ISM +t- ma t a,+ mu0
I 0 mm L no Ea, *- t m mm
U> a,m Y .- m mm E Kt o mco
am t a, ... ot (0 a, tLL oom OU- +m I-K a, m -- > vu m kt3
t2S .- .-
.-
nu0
.- .-
I- am L .-
t oa, tt 0 ~n a, tr m .- 3 Q a3 tu m- m m 330
Lm .- a, Ulna, m> n- .- - mt a, .- rt m SK oaa, I->m
at
- .-
on L
>i m -0 c t m *- a,> t m--- a, r 3-0 anL . .- -
~ E .- ta, Ot-o 0 0 m mo (0 K K E+ L L .- L 0 a, >-o 3 ++.- c o
L 0 t
a,
t
E
- .-
2 +
o a,. KW .- a,
a, .- KO
a, a,u mm r+ mL rzl om
-t;
ma -
ru wt am t 6-0 OK om
mo -c ow.
ma,€ tm a,3L -0 t- n
KQ
.- - m mi3
mt m 3 mf
L I: .- tK a, mu
tm WOE
-
a
M r 0 8 36
c II CL - 0 8 > A
m *a, -s
\- N us
sm
- .-
.- e& .- * t-n
23 marn .- € - m- -0 LO a,o a ta m+ 3+ 0 bot 25g 3 E+
a I d
r t
3
-0 a, a, L
0) m
c. 0- KM >-
.- -
A> .- L- no a, t >m at Ea, E- OK Y --
S 3Lm 0 0 '- l:+r mt m -ms m s .- m .-
La,
> a,- €- Em mr Ym
an c.
7-J rr at E e- E3 * 0- 0 E- a, a,\ LCN
W t- d
0 k-
z 0
k- O
-
a
a, '13
h .- -0 \t N -m 8 -0 *- on
0) m.r -0
+a) +a, mL tm mm
2 'a
ge- so .- cn a, a, mcc cn frr 0- u- iil r %-? 3 0u3 L Sla, 8°C. t 3- >a, ms ta, 0
Om Ot .- + .-
L aa, tt tm 33 (30-
+ EO mE t(o0 cnYt
a, 110
t ts 0
m om 8 m -- .- (I: 8 3tr .- >-0 KI 0 m t r a- -- m mr - .- ==
at 2 L:
t;
I I .- u a,- 0-0 a, I t a, n m 0
t a, e t m a, m
U 8 m
.- .. m m 8 .- >* mr mt
t- m .-
0m 8
mm .- t ts 8 .- mm t€ m nL 3a mt
.-
on
- .-
- .- m
(0 ad- m t- L- Ln a,- a, > 0 s+ 000 OQ L a,-(=
tat=
E2rZ. t a,. m m-03 a,+s 0 t 0.- L- m 3a- a, a, mt (0 L cn L (or O 3-0 3 m
8 e
t;
P, ?g
I-
(0 0
t 8.
a a, Or k-t
a,
m 8 a,
2
m m 8 t; .- > a m
a, 8 m
8 + oa, BB 0- Lnm
a, @ma, n s 3- .- t 0 nma,o - xn a 3 0 >-a, a, r m Or m 3 rt m ULt+ -am0 a, r .- .-tu Ln
0 a, L.- -r m m
IO ULn 3 LONt 08 tLa,a, m3rr 3ttt
+ O-02
gt >-
L
tmm -+Em OS n ...- st K Ot 0 L .-
g.9 c 6
m t a,
8
- .-
L a, 4-
>-i m a, .- - L g:
*- 3
tT3
EU Lt Q) a, a, a, me ttt t mmtm >s 3tu
me- ma, 8 E -3 m*- m c g c - .-
t- m E- -- o xo
aL aa,
ea
mt m 03 tL ma, su .- 8 E3
E wl in6 ma, Ut .- L m uta, s mr *- m t -0
m -8
m U io 3 as tm m* 8 mm *- K 8 E .- .- .- a a
t rain -LCU m mt a, a 3. Im ma, 88 .- -+ wo - .- .- wan .- .- A- - &m a,
.. A al HI 0 -
W c- 0 z \ z
a w E
0 L Kt aoom t- 0 m mt+r 3 (0 .- LKQ> a,.- L m UEmm 833 3- um m +--\t
Y-ra,m - .- Ea, ' m m3L- L K- 3N
-
OmFm
t- Y- LO x\ on~--a
.-
ccv KmO .- MLn ts- a a,ta,r -. - x >tM a, .- a, .- -
0 Ft-0
n+- 3-
m K
e- a, tL La m3 0- m \ Lm aK ta, a€ 33 L- a, uo CW 3
.- -
a,. >TI-
L > Qt to '- m 0 0 m+
n - \ N
U a,
m m
ct cc a t v,
v
2
I K
t
0
a, 73
>
.-
.-
E: n
0 t
II. 0- CM >- --I\ N Lv a, >a, am Em Ea, Sb
a,u EKL a .- m m> SI a, 3ln
J= ON tr ma, L Lm 0-0 C + 0 E.- O€ ma E nr .*.-
+u oa, .- a,+ m .- KU
0 w a, LO tt
2i2
0) - Go
ma coo .-
tal mL at 5- CY- -0
00 0 00 ?:+. IO
ON Ln
0000 OLnOO O-Lnrn- * -.N Ln m- 64\ -a
m LO -- 30 mat M 000 4 .- .- a- CLt - a t .- 69 L 0r OD0 t a,-L a, zwa z
C
a, m. K- ma r- 0\ Ln -0 a,* >ln
QUY n- m
-0 .- 0
C 3+ 00 0 a,
tm .- I: 0m
.-
Pq
-
vn
rn
> K" a, a, OM ELI-- € m\ m 0-N Yt >-
m 3 P a, m 8 Io U
> L a, >
I ltodl I KO --0 La, mt- a, LU m a, *-La,L
0 0s- OQO-o
SO,>
L mmm > 4- K -t
3- >m- m 0 *- a, s- 5 ou~o ma m- - om mtu m tr LO m.-um a OEa,O ~~toa, .- m-c 3- mt
to >t 0 K >e- Io z.--u 07
.- .- .-
a, ..mP8 *- a,
@K
0. trm
no
Pk," t .- 04- 3 ='OF
i moF ut LCC
ma- 0 0 nt c m3 aa, 0
m .- -- 00 mm to 3m
m oar u L--0 0 L at*- 3 mt 0 m E oa,z oELLm Itam mo mt KLn KmU .- OBa, >a01 0 .-r nzi ut -@TI ma, a, a,+ 8-0 L r 0 e- t o+a, ouoo OK K 0 0 mU .- mt- ta, m3 (or K 0 0 ut-0 0
ar
n M
\ N
t K
0 a
0
-
w
.-
.-
Y- .- 0 a,
m
I: 0 m a,
0 t
t
a
!i?
2
5
n ..
.- t 0 a, m
m
f t
t
3
a,
.-
I: .-
- n
0 K
L
.-
.-
n
K .-
-0 a,
m
(0
f: 0 K > -I
L a, > a, E E
(0 Y
E
.. 2? - fY W W z
c3 z W
4
J
-
a
a
o
z
I
z
-J 0
-
8
B
L a, f:> 00 C >+ Y- -loo
U a, rm 03 K >a, -In
LO at > a,€ Ea, Et
m 3:
r. 0- KM >- -I\ N L- a, >- a,o E. E> 3;
a, ‘a
-0 \t N -m c u --
n
@a El ‘a m m- U +a, +a, mL tm mm
m m K
> m m
t m 0 0
m
t S m t m
3 m
.-
- .-
n
I: It a .-
a- 3 a
‘c! e> .- . LL t ma, mm 03m m -u c m .- m at tt a, 0.- t CY-
-
L 2-l- a,m 0 a, *- 0 E- EOt mmm \I W I- 5
0 I-
n
L .. -a, -.
\ N \U N u
U
z 0
I- o 5
- a,
m m
E
Y- +
(0 t m
I - .- . m* .- m lm SKC 3 .- .- om> 574
mat mt m mo EL0 ma, t a\ go 8
Lt?
m 0 *-
at a, t- ul -3 .- 0 cd Y- *- Y-C a, Y- .- I: .- m I-ut
L oa, Y-m m
a, E a,
a,
a, f t
t;
-
L alu t>a, a, *- m EU K
m m K I -- oar nr tal
*- K U
mn s-
5 ._o 7 ut 8 .-
8
L -m E 30Y-r 3 m- 0
0 a,- t a, mr m.- m >t m > L om3 a,ra~m rt m t-a, a, znur
Y- Kt -uu (0 a- C s 3 0.- .. .- OK
3 n>
an 3-u tE na,
z 0 e-
0 ot-;
.- >
(0 m Y- .- om mr 31 a, >s go
L t cn 0 0
na, > E >- 3 a,- am -0 K S .- .- 0 t mmm E(oE 00
a, It
tam €
L3
y-gm - .-
E e Y-
at mm L a,c €0 a, .- t Lm OL Lt
K 0 .- c
0 L a
a
a 5 m
A; a, >
(0 mu f m
1 LU oa, >U L- I -Y- .- 0 Y- U ma a, Y-4- Y-5 U - 3 aC 0 m .- I:. 3 mm
0 ’; m a,- >oa, 0> cor a,r -at za
h
N M d Ln W
a, n
a
4
0
z -
inF ttt tL --Io mmu ma, aoa, a- >XL >.- or -t a, *- K a- x3 -mu -E2
0 t
0 n
m 8
h - \ N \ N \ N v
-0 a, a, L m m
U a, P, L L m m + + m t;
m m
u- + m t m
+
Y-
(0 t cn
a, r c a, m. KU m- m r3c 0 0 .- x3> a,m am tL mat a,f m Lt 0 0 u-t 0 3- -om tK m -0 0 a, *- 0Lt om -EL ma, tma
a- t 0 am moa, 0 un
0 m oa, mtom mm -m ow L - 0640
E L LL 00 tt .- u-
a, C 0
> n
.- (0 + .-a, rm Cf- L- 2g W + 9
5:
\ z
a W LT
Kl- a, a, a, tr t cut 0 .E QE*-+ OXO m- 0
a, 0 am t L no m am 0
n ~t m m mm K C
> > m m m m
.- .- .- >a,a)a, a, mnr -m t -tu a, t m $
tt m m 0 0 00
m i- mx 033C or 0- m t-mtnat
.- urn rt 0 m .- . 3 r> m m C 0
m
a, >
-
Y- + 0 O m > > t tu- .- 0
a- -0 n nm
e- a, mt m mm m @KL
0 a, a, .- a, .- rmo rm t~n tL m a, ara, a,> tOL tr co x e- mo ma,+ mu
.- - - .- .-
+*-a, G -
.- .-
30 a, u- 0- 0 L r m K
5
K 0
e ma, t >C to -- t am 5 m *- - .- .- - n .- a, La, Or -t
ut m 73 KU ma,
f
m C .- mL >o t 0
-i - 00
m om am - >3 3+
oa, mm f L- > mu L cob ua, 0 ‘7 U3K % ‘0 on *+ ala, tc .-
LO a, -a, *- u 8 ‘cn
.- t- =m mm a xu -0 a- am
m *- 3-l-t mom 0ru
-I PI HI co m
I m
.. e 4
h cn \ d I-
La, Ut Lm
t .cn -a, -> \K N .-
O at t me mm
,-
am .-
W
z-
\ N
W
.- in
tQ cn at >o cc
a, >a, ea.-. d ON Ot\ tb E- +a, +t c mcno t >.a- mcnt
.- o a, a, L
-0 a, P .- m m m m
(0 + + m t m
u- +-t mu to mt
cn m K
> m cn
t cn
.-
8
.* K O
t u K 3 +
.-
8
I f 0 a, E
K .-
cn 8 0
t .- .- t L% 0 a0 tL m c-
*- m EO
-e Wm
.- .-
- -
cn m K
> m cn
t
0
m
t
m t cn n 3 m
.-
0"
- .-
4
a,I ro t-
E e-
c Lu 0
n
to cnln >.- cn
+.
$-
Y- -00
4- .-
- m m mt a,.- a, a,- cn ClLLQa, t-nmmcn>
8 Y 0 - N M
I r t ?
t m
0- t- m\ mhl
m KY
*- 0 Ua, K-0 a, E- EO
v
85: 2+
2:
0
a,L
mL mo 0
u-t mm tal m3
I K a, t K
-0
Y-
.- !2
.o ?
5%
... . mm em
tm 0 3-0
mm u rm 0-0 KK am m- L a,+- EO a, a, LO os km
m m a, 0 0 m
L m
3 0
c a, >
t 0- a,Y Lu '- a, -073
a,- -00 -- 0 >a 0 LO
-
.-
at
I
L .-
? m
f t
3
-0 a, m m x 0 m
-0
a, n
0 t
U a,. a,- L- m\ mN
u-t mu
.-
.-
v
Y-
$2
I If mu -m 3a, ?z .- vo t L or tL mf tK UQ) a,
m .- ar
n M
K\ mN
L to ma, as om a, .- am a, ..TI -0 am am L 03K m .- mm
e- E ma, L r 00 Kt r -lr L Lt a,r rQ) a, EX EV ma, YU
-
.- v
t. 0 t
m
m
Y 0 a, -0
-.n urn a,- a,\ LN m- (0 mu
*- Q) uc m L .- um ea, ro -I m Lm a, >K a, *- Em EE ma, YL
2
cu-
n E\ a, a,-
N
I a, L a, n Y u-u
a, mc 3m 3 m- su-
O*
rr mt Y m -- u 30 r-0 0Y r s- r- 0 - --I-0- am
a,.- o\ LK -
md- c no -- N
n .- K A=m -a0 on OL aa, a, u -- Q)KL cmL ttm mn 0 e- to- m LEV a, 3 .- mEm 0 *- r - xr
E m oa,
uma -
Bf 2
a, a. mm at a, ..a, -E
t> K *- ot v .-
Pa, m @E N .- E
SY- a, .- L Era 0 0 .- L t-t a,
.E P c; t Oa, ~a
00
-
n mala, -ax 0 -Lt K mm a, f ru- mwn a,* mt m 8 L m a,- 0, L L-
L .- mt ut c sma, or u Ot m
La ma, -0L > .- 0 - >mt
L- a, L an La,
% ms
oa,oui
Lmo a- o on om m tar m > *- E -t F
.-
.- .-
N m
a, m
(0 L 0- tm mo
UC om .- c mu
.-
%E
Or -t -0 .-
>m a, om -0 Q 0 +L .- Q.
ma, tt
-
- Io ss >s 0 '- t tm +.- 0
Lm ma,nt 0-0 a,L 0 a, - 0 om
t m->o a eo ut- ma3 ma, .-t ta-c- KO 0 > .- .- \ L o ante -0 +-mrf.v -0a I 0)
LV a, -- 3 0)C LU3-t m .- t a3 .-t- >+
on -a, C mc*- c LOtCt 3.- ro ut 0.- 5 --It
c m e- t *- >.- n 0 .- ta, €--a,- >3 0 QU a,tM EL- Em\ t- > E s .- .- aom y-w o.-- uo
OZfP
ms .- matv- CL
.- .-
- .-
a,L a,o Not-f? oxr-
ra, 3 m Fa,
- -e mi- SC 00 .- 0 t *- -0 -03 00 mL 0
u) CL .- 0
- 0 0 Q
0 t
-0 a,
Q Q 3 m
a, n
0 t
L a,. 3- Om
e
> Y oo hla, N-0
.- -
a\
.U
W F- a n
0 F-
h - \ N
-u a, a, L
u) m
u- + m t cn
U
.- - t\ 0 CN t a,-
0 -- s cv- a, >+ E J3Q m e- L3 a,mv rt a, a0 E--Y Et 0 m3a y 00
r 'U t m- L LM 0 0- f a\ rLN r- mco
xr -
~n- s .- 0 a,-
Ytn EL+& zo3 om-
-
0 B E a, t m r m
4 m a, C .- f x 3 I a, c m >
0 0 a
m
L 0 LL
m L a,>
C on
30 a, a,O 0)C m3 LO OL tL m3 - ma, a,u oms a, mv- tt 3 mx Or C t e- a- m>
a- a s > 0 *-
.- .-
e :2 aou
mm 0
mu a, t a- a, a,t or - m nt
0- a, 0
ro m >-am na, 0.- a, L N mr m hl mt on a, a+ a, -0 oa, .- .. -0 >-a, ooma, L 0 me a ant
UlQ
%8L+
3
L 3. u- E8 a a, -0-0 .:
>3
am ??
In
a, I- m- 0- - .-
I: 0 3,: on r\mm >mt- J-0 o\ L-N Lm - Go m >K a, me-- ~t~n E m L.- m mm Y mnm KO
e- W Q *+ K -L(UY- 0 *- \ *- m N-so w .- a, CY+
-
n
Y-N ON \ rm 0-
tt mo La, at 73 .- *- c mu CL om 0 a0 Lt
ow ma, ut et a, .- E€
03 om a, LK m x .-
.-
En
on NmtO -0 00 mL-0 SO - .-Y- m-
m -- t dm LK mL + L- tm L 00 t .- n
na,
4 offl
a, Lo ma, mu S L-
am
2E > e- -J a, Ln a,. >o- a,+m E- Et\ m ON Y--v
W t- d
0 I-
z 0
I- o
-
a
orons 0.- a, L
m --L m -00 woo cc a, ne cc a, .- mLL t mo a, v, m+n
2 00 g '-3
-0 a.- a, a, m-0 LU a, ma,+ mam L0 Y- 00 cc m- coiii t .- a, moo
c .- t +
ET 0 '-2 s - 0- .- -- (0- at a, x t a,- c 01: a,
n a, >t 0 E aha, OtLKJK c mt o 0
ea, ot c srt v 0- -o+m -0 o a,o m wm~ma - 0 a, La- 5 0 cnr m 3.- a, 0 a,.- 0 WYI: a- E a, ~t n LE L m c a,m ncc OS+~O 0
L.- 0 z+-
omu (0 a, O+& c
a, a,+t 3au-I E mL m a,*-+ 0 mt3nt or
m E a, K 0
t
a, a 0
0
a, m
(0 W
.-
P
+
n
a e
m m K .- > m cn
t m 0 o
a, L - 01 tE 0 to 0
0 070 sa
LL mt
--
za,
f0
n Y-
-- a, to c .- am
a, U c ZJ
m e mn L t .- 0 a- m Y-Y m La, m m+ UQ La, mu L uca, c mz m3 tm m+ m cm t ma, c .- L m 0 *7Y c 0 -- aa, -0-0 cn *- t
.- -
m m L m
aoa, m r r+ UmmY t uo -mas 3+-
-0
a, to me K *-
e- E €E
"g
.- .-
mr 00- --o o 0- 0 L -n +x- >-i
-3 wm
h
-0 + r 0 Po 'P *I a3 0 -
88 00 u- I .-
I* r u* C- >-M 1- \ LN a,- > 0-0 Ea, Em (03 Y a, n
-0 -t \ Nt
m -of @a am Lm m m- n +a, +a, mL tm mm
v-
.- L nri aom atua rs t.-t m
ta mm
a .- ma,> uum cxm ala, Em Et 0 Ot
L m- 8- .- t .- -
F - m- ew c .- L .- r . Lm*t- L .- 10 L8 m SN 3 n\
-la d
+L -.- E L-f mooma, YtY-3>
IL La
>EO
mL mam zzr a t. m ma, a, on E L t .- m -t s- a, o.- a, r.- 3s tt 0 mt -0- m > s a,r 8 3 Lt m 0 Y- 8 mt .- a, m mx mu- a,
NQ) -+.-Y-L - m Ot
an
O 222
3: an L
+-a, ... s 3 .- mma,o> mu 8 3 c .-
0 0 UY a
-et-- ([In
0 EL- a,
mu- 3 8 L.- .- fl) in .-
m m m m 8 c .- .- > > m m m m
t >u m Et 8t ora, 13 m*- > 0 mo tLa, m 13 .- ..I a, E
cn m rn- >Y-
2x+jp,””f t m 0 0
-L 0 0
L L
-Y- LE3 il 0-0 sals Y 0 .- on m 3 0 t- - QW
tLm am t sua,
me u- a, SL-u- Ot 0 u 13 o* 0 QS a, m .- L a,- t or Lt t a, t e- t u-m mroc us
E- alr a, ut L 0 - (0 .- .- , w3m3m
n as
23SU
.- so* a, .- -
-0 rn 3- mN ml 8s
Lm
a3
Yt”
rnn
a,a, nr tu
Q, -ut msm fms m *- tE
a, m- a, ma ma, mmn S .- r - *-I-- L.- (u m3r am U a, a,- * u-
s- m rn
-
- .-
m+ 3
In .. a, xu
*- a,
3 a0 La, tL
nu
+a, on
m- m- a,a,m r L .- I-mt
a 3
N M U
C .o i? td m ON cn OCO- K 00-N .- a, a- > L a-\
m m 8t-Z 111 my a, 0 t -- 0. m ma-- cn 0-no .- .-\ cx)
m
>D 0- a, > K (9 0- .- oom mr A 0 t 0 E 0- r to--n Ut K V)Q)LaI > (EILa,t J L >a, .- mw L
t t2-0"
a, 2;
2;g
@a, rm t3 c .- r u 8
L 0>- c- >-- Jm K L .- a,cn >. --
E e. > -1
L. a- >m Om t- \ *N uw
L tu *- e 3m t -K a,- €\ EN 8' U a,
bL €0 E mm Ym
00 a0
cnL ' at - mx .- a, \u Nt ' cm 0 TI KQ) a, >s
o,L m @a,. >n - +a, M + E--
(0 €-\ t m-N m YS'
em
-
P
KO 00 .- M K
-a -€ \a, hl L-
'pr\
. .-
\ N \a, NU Km
L 00 0>- 00 r-
v a, on 0- ut\ CY $ ..w a,
m m
L) 32
L .- am
so .- - h
a, e2 fU o,a,w
>-e- a,L EO E am Ya
cc + m t UJ
tm mm
a, LI 0- a, t '- cn mmom m>L mo O *r+ +-Ln VI .. L 6- a, 0- a, -0 e.- 0 Lm3L 00 m a,- - e cmL -ma,a
rtu *0 a, m 3 -u o,m *.- K 0> .-+t n
r 4- ir 0 u m m c
m m K
- m c 0 .- .- >
(0 m
.- > > m m cn m .- t (0 t m 0 0
t-l 0 0
L a, a 0
I It a, > o U
m .-
0 B
a 0
m* 0G t-
(0 UQ) 8 .-
L a, a- tu a- t *-
a- 3 €0 .-
CIS
Yba,a, t 60-n 3 UJ e 0.- 0 m.--a our
---0 t-m -- 3
LI3&CCK a, .- a, 00
+-'at m m
J PI HI - N M
I a,cn
** c3 z
-I
- a -
E E -0 -0 WL
r u CS
I
0 2 I E r .- \ TN I a, -0 tr m a-
.- m E E
u- sa, 2- -la, n L 00 2-+
8m m a,= 5:
a, n
0- tln N m\ Ed- 0 0.. La3
0 t .. t -- ms ma, .- a tlo
.- m E E Em EL ma, "t
-0 a, a,
E mm Ym djm >C s *- . .- m 0 0- n -
L m -m S
"(13 -E la, NL
. .-
v
I m .- Y- O P lL NO Ll a,* Yw u ocn
v .- . -. m .- 0 II:L t't a0
m 00 ES 0 o-rr mm
*- 0 0 mu L L morr
oao --I
P-1-33
m mtt
m- Ecn Ol 0- L- O 00 tu
L .- - m LU m ala, >-s Y- am Y- E .- m Em t ma, m Yo
L Y-m Y-m mm t *- mu
ma, LV oa, 8 'a m Ea0
m k! -- t mE,
a,
-or
o am 0 >Y s tY 0.- 0- -r m L.- ua a, 3 I mu E 2-C Y .- s u s 3.- am0 tTLm m rs 0 t -- 0. r -Km@
m a,- 0
on L
0 y-
mu a .- 0Yo
x OY- a, 220G
ooy
at m a, E EL
Ot-
a, t. a, mu a, a, *- r Lrnt
l > m m
L t m 0 u
L .- -I-*-- >- a, mmsr-- >tra,o3a, u .- L -- n t +am t m Y-t 0 >-*-- E m.-- LU 0.- tLumsOX mu moa, L xm 0
t m (00 .- u
-
c
t -*-L R) - .- Y-r a, m
Ot& to a, m t m't
... S 0
t u III 3 Y-
.- ;I ... am to gz 0 Liu Eo a, cnr
mL a,r s mllt
e.. .- mePa,
Y-L 00 e t u-
S 0 0 mwt 0 mn 3 om t-ct m-t u 0 .- .C a, 0 3 s+-
m 3 m
.- E= m .- Y- m -+- s w 0 *-
.- >
I
a- -0 ts Lm m am E ro .- 0 IL
ms m *-
CL
S .- L a, 2d 0 0
in m
m E
L
m I
.- it0 m CC mln .- m .-
as ma, m La,€ m30 -t 0 a,L
oL an
e- m a, >SY a, IO- us E s a, a,.- .- ar- mot a,
gou
a- 0 at-
J PI 81 a3
0 t -+ a, n M c- u\ SN r- -I a, Ln Q)> rt a, EL Em
a, n
-0 -+ \ Ncn
9"
CI M
Y-\ ON
>- +a, -- >
a- t
-
v
- .-
a \ M v
I .- OK t oa, a, .- n a,PS-+ c a, 0.- 0 t.- tt .
I > m cn
-0 P co
I 0 ncn mt UOO t+ on in tla, OL cum , ma, .- a c
E h EM u- t\
L 0 t in 0 0
+ a, - t a, - cnt ~ alxsa, wtu .- 0 + a, a, - .-
Lt u7 m
t in cn h
L
a- 0 to cob KItft .-
.- t cn a, > K .-
u--
(0 P su
cn \ d- w !z n
0 I-
z 0
I- o
-
a
v
-0 a, t m L
L 0 0 K .-
Em
a- a, --o ax
LV OK Y- a-
- 0 t
L u
-t a, u- \ N v
-U a,
0) m
E
cnL cnu 8 .- L >- -I m Ins .- 0 u e-
.- c >3 m cno 0 tcn cn. ON 069
L a, >- a, E E (0 x
a, cn t K3 f o
+
u-t mL tm wa
Y- .- u- u- m t w
a, x Cr cn (5) K .-
..I cn 10 a, > co cn
L m
cn 3 0 + cn 8 L a, cn P S m In 07 S
> m cn
.- 8 0
to cn CK Y- a, .- + t> om Qvl 0 z
P 3 t cn 0 o
$2 t
S K a, .- m 0-0 > ma, ln -7 In K L -03 a, a, m > a,
0 cn cn 0- 0- L .- t P a, L - tZ m* t cn 3cn 3 at Lm c WE 0
a,+ t a0 a, tL t m m ([IT Sco SL 8 .- a, .-
m EA E .- 0 .- -0 - - mt w- w wrcn
.-
2 0
0
.- €1: .- -
L OE 0 EO OLm e, E
..I c3 ZI -I n -I1
3 m
-J
-0 t c 0 mu v3 - -u
n M m 3J= Ot u3 so
h M - - o\ t IN 3L 03 0-0
.- u
W I- a n
0 I-
K
-m -E \a, NL
. .-
v
t
-m -E \a, NL
0 -0t a,
ma, ma, L +m +m mm t e- mu
. .-
W
2;
z 0
I- o
-
a
0 ut Q)
ma, ma, L
2;
U a,
m (0
? m3t s 0 .- mu 3 =I 0-0- -- rm v-m mm t;s
Y- + m t m
.- .- >Y OL LO a3
U I-
m
m -0 K m >
>-
a, 07 m Y
-
n
m
n
0 t
a, s 0 L a
2
-0
3 0 c m
r m 3 >- L t 8 a,
K
-
.-
mu sa, Ot -0m CK
SE
m- ma, m -a,
.- .- .-
an
ala, rn tL -- m W I-
\ z
8
% a W LT
K t .- t 03.- E c E 3.- m ta,,rWE mJ=0 a, Kt 3
8OtK>-
-.
0 *-L
r Y .- omm E at u3 LO at t su s= 0- .- L 0 3+ 0
m m S
> .- L om
m m ma, a, STT -- t t L
Xi-0 c3 mt
t m 8
I aa, -la, La mm> ECrnL
0tL 00 U am0 - a,r LE.-- 3ct @I- m 0 m-x a, c\30 -0c ma, 0 0-t re-m 3 a, 0 a00 vt 3 a, Lrt
a- m or m m ‘trtt m ’tt -am 0 t -.OUa, 0 K* 0.- 0 mmmmn‘to - ta, Y-m LW mua, 0 alar I: t cnt 0 t t m 0 mm0s -a, SO OWLL m 0 c L s a,.- E - .- + (0 mu
2:2gP=2
cn S
ffl E 0 e
- 3
c -0 - am SI
COMMUNITY SWIMMING POOL CHRONOLOGY
ACTION DATE
3/62
2/65
2/66
2/6 7
10/72
3/73
10/73
4/74
11/74
2/ 75
7/ 75
12/75
1/ 76
2/76
6/76
8/ 76
9/ 76
11/76
12/ 76
City Manager sent out queries on pool - no record of re- sponse.
Carlsbad Jr. Chamber of Commerce interested in promoting pool.
Carlsbad Jaycees helped on Boys' Club pool.
City 6 School District interested, but School unable to par- ticipate for several years.
Pool Committee appointed, AB910.
Pool Committee recommended concept and design of pool; joint agreement with School District, AB910, #1.
Initiative to be prepared for March, 1974, election; costs reported to $498,000 for construction and annual operations of $53,000, AB2155.
Negotiations with School District to determine participation; preparation of construction cost estimate, AB3065.
Appraisal of property at southwest corner of Chestnut and Monroe; proposal on three sites by School District, AB910, #2.
Negotiations for pool site at southwest corner of Chestnut and Monroe, AB910, #3.
School District withdrew one of previously proposed sites.
Report to City Council on three potential sites.
Pool Committee reactivated and request for proposals from architects authorized, AB910, #4. Pool Committee recom- mended site at southwest corner of Chestnut and Monroe.
Definite proposal from architect due within six months, AB910, #5.
Kammeyer Lynch 6 Partners selected as pool architects, AB910, #6.
Joint meeting of City Council and Parks 6 Recreation Commis- sion on pool.
Petition against pool at Carlsbad High School and in resi- dential areas.
Site evaluation by Kammeyer Lynch 6 Partners.
Site evaluation accepted, EIR to be prepared, negotiate for agreement with School District, AB910, #7.
2
DATE
21 77
6/77
7/77
9/77
11/77
2/78
31 78
4/78
5/01/78
5/02/78
5/03/78
5/19/78
6/02/78
6/15/78
7/27/78
ACTION
EIR preparation services obtained for $3,950, AB910, #8.
Public hearing by Planning Commission on EIR.
Public hearing by City Council on EIR389, AB910, #9.
City/CUSD Agreement, AB910, #lo, Resolution 5153.
Agreement with Kammeyer Lynch for design of pool complex, AB910, #11, Resolution 5201.
Grant deed to pool site accepted and changes made to City/ CUSD Agreement, AB910, #11.
Joint meeting of CUSD Board of Trustees, Pool Committee and Parks 6 Recreation Commission to review several concepts; recommended Land Use Concept 3 at $1,279,453.
Plan 3 accepted with additional monies to be budgeted in fiscal year 1978-79, AB910, #12.
Amended grant deed for site, AB910, #13.
Public Works requested Planning to determine if CUP required.
Conference 5: Site and building plans presented; Kammeyer Lynch to review design of bag room, use of outside lockers, closing open roof, bus drop-off point, impact of landscap- ing in waiting area, handicapped exits from locker rooms; Kammeyer Lynch to include 10" pipe and collector box for emergency water supply; Kammeyer Lynch to submit proposal on fee increase; City to provide comments on plans so Kam-
meyer Lynch can proceed with plans and specifications.
Kammeyer Lynch submitted proposal for fee increase.
Planning informed Public Works that CUP was required.
Chase and Spano had lengthy telecon with Warkintin (Kammeyer Lynch) on plans presented 5/2/78; design of bag room, use of outdoor lockers, closing of open roof plus other sub-
jects discussed; other items from 5/2/78 meeting not cov- ered. Other items covered include enlargement of pool and type of vessel (gunite or aluminum); Kammeyer Lynch to provide list of activities for size of pool designed.
City submitted counter-proposal on fees to Kammeyer Lynch.
Conference 6: Surface material at drop-off point, vandal- resistent glazing and retaining light and visual access at entry, preliminary landscape design to be implemented, open- ings in roof to utilize self-ventilating skylights, mechan- ical room size to be determined, bag room size to be re- searched for needs, maintenance problems on use of hard water to be checked, parking stalls determined to be 289; Kammeyer Lynch recommended 3'6" at shallow end of pool.
3
DATE ACTION
8/07/78
8/15/78
9/05/78
10/03/78
10/10/78
10/12/78
10/12/78
10/17/ 78
10/23/78
10/24/78
10/27/78
11/08/78
11/20/78
11/ 22/ 78
11/2 7/ 78
11/28/78
Architect informed City that plans may not have to go to
OSA unless CUSD wants to submit.
Architect acknowledged substantial curtailment of work
pending City Council disposition of project per telecon from City on 8/11/78.
City Council directed staff to continue work on pool as originally approved, AB910, #14.
City Council directed staff to renegotiate fees with archi- tect, AB910, #15.
Architect ceased all work on project pending execution of contract and requested project completion date and interim progress review schedule be revised at time of renegotiation of contract.
CUSD stated OSA review not required.
Staff met with architect to discuss contract fees and sched- ule revision.
Architect submitted proposed revision to contract fees and schedule.
Architect provided City with information on gunite and alumi- num pool vessels and requested City decision on type.
City Council approved contract amendments on fees and sched-
ule: "Plans and specifications shall be completed 60 days after receipt of executed copy of amendments." AB910, #16, Resolution 5545.
City Clerk sent copy of amendment to architect for signa- ture; signed amendment returned (should have been received about 10/31/78; hence, plans and specifications due 12/30/78).
Planning Commission heard and continued CUP158 desiring more information on energy sources, especially solar.
Architect informed City that production of drawings, spec- ifications, etc., cannot be completed due to lack for infor- mation regarding pool material.
Planning Commission heard and continued CUP158 pending re- ceipt of final plans.
Architect requested meeting to review plans which are 60% complete.
City requested meeting, determined pool vessel to be other than aluminum per architect's recommendation, presented gen- eral questions on complex and discussed VE review at 60%
to 75% des'ign stage.
4
DATE ACTION
11/29/78
11/30/78 Conference 7: Kammeyer Lynch to investigate alternates to
Architect provided preliminary probably construction cost at 60% level at $1,114,095.
handicapped ramp, alternative methods of flooring in shower and dressing areas, movement of diving boards to opposite side of pool, vessel medians other than aluminum for cost and construction. Flatters resolved: Kitchenette to be rearranged with fold-down cot in first aid room, use of one hot water heater, one drinking fountain in spectator area, free-standing telephone in entry plaza, pool depth transi- tion will comply with codes, gutter design should accommodate lane-line storage, mechanical consultants to be advised of pool inlets at bottom, ladders recessed with one between high and low diving boards, no jacaranda plantings at entry, re- movable (retractable) bleachers to remain, permanent concrete bleachers with underneath storage if economically feasible at north end, life guard stands to be removable and OSHA approved, interior showers have tempered water, exterior showers and toilets have only cold water, staff showers have hot and cold water, water closets wall hung with flush fixtures, similarity in signs and locations, City needs to respond for type of ves- sel other than aluminum, type of skylights (opened or closed) needs to be determined, future meeting to discuss 'mechanical system.
Kammeyer Lynch conditionally approved value engindering study. 12/11/78
I
12/20/78 Kammeyer Lynch provided solar feasibility study td City and 75% drawings and calculations for value engineeriqg study.
Conference 8: Kammeyer Lynch to investigate deck Ilevel gutter drain system, Vitroglazing wall coating; Kammeyer Lynch to submit recommendations on pool mechanical equipmeqt. Items resolved: pool outlets to be located in lane linds, ease in maintenance and removal of mechanical equipment in, design, tempered water to exterior showers (all others saae), continu- ous electrical plug bar in staff office and lounge, PA speakers in building, pool area and entry plaza; pool deck 'lights to be non-offensive to neighborhood, sufficient lights at step
and ramp, light switches in hall, steel gate at poiol deck toi- let entry, skylights to be open with screen, kitch,en appli- ance stubbed in but not part of contract, shower rloom floor to be broom finish on concrete, diving boards to rema~in on east side, neither gas or oil specified for boiler, gas1 recommend- ed, D.E. and chlorine gas delivery and storage will comply with codes and safety regulations, spray nozzles at high div- ing boards, Kammeyer Lynch provided cost comparisoln of pool vessel material, City specified using gunite at approximately $5/sq. ft., City to determine number of diving boalrds.
12/21/78 Parks 6 Recreation Department submitted comments oln Kammeyer Lynch - proposed landscaping.
1/02/79 Kammeyer Lynch provided recommendations on pool eq'uipment.
5
DATE
1/03/79
1/04/79
1/09/79
1/15/79
1/17/79
1/22/79
1/24/79
1/24/79
1/31/79
ACTION
Kammeyer Lynch concerned with City's delay of one month (November 20 - December 20) in determining pool material (11/30 meeting report showed Kammeyer Lynch investigating vessel median other than aluminum; 12/20 meeting report showed Kammeyer Lynch provided cost comparisons, City se- lected gunite); Kammeyer Lynch requested additional 20 work days (plus the 30-day delay); Kammeyer Lynch request- ed that City make decisions on pool gutter design, number
and location of diving boards and use of tempered water in exterior showers by January 12, 1979 or additional delays will occur (11/30 meeting report shows gutter design should accommodate lane-line storage; 11/30 staff notes show type
of gutters to be determined considering storage of lane lines; 12/20 meeting report shows Kammeyer Lynch will investigate deck level gutter drain system; 12/20 staff notes show gutter design with lane-line storage has to be designed at added cost so leave out); Kammeyer Lynch reported any design changes at this time will necessitate extra service for pre- viously approved drawings and if VE review should result in
substantial revisions the time of covpletion and contract fees need to be reviewed.
Kammeyer Lynch provided copy of staff notes of 12/20/78 meet- ing and Parks 6 Recreation comments of 12/21/78 on landscape plans.
Kammeyer Lynch provided 90% working drawings for value engi- neering study.
City responded to Kammeyer Lynch letter of 1/3/79; 12/20 - delay in pool vessel material not fault of City; 12/20-con- tinue with surge gutters with line lanes which have been
considered (corrected - see 2/15/79) ; 12/20-diving boards, as recommended by Kammeyer Lynch, to remain on east side of pool and three boards installed with space for one later; 12/20- tempered water for interior and exterior showers, cold water to lavatories and wash basins and hot and cold water to staff areas; l/ll-Kammeyer Lynch to include recommended spe- cial conditions with specifications including appropriate
Federal, State and local requirements; and l/ll-area west of north-end bleachers to be for open storage.
Value engineering team met.
Value engineering team leader gave verbal and typed report to staff, copy to Kammeyer Lynch and others.
City staff met to discuss value engineering report.
Kammeyer Lynch reque ted copy of CUP158 conditions, given name of solar contac at Camp Pendelton, directed to attend Planning Commission eeting this date to discuss CUP158.
City responsibilitie for design and construction check list prepared.
6
DATE ACTION
2/01/79 City provided Kammeyer Lynch with corrected draft of CUP158 and staff (Parks 6 Recreation) comments/recommendations on value engineering report (less indicated attachments sent
2/9); City requested meeting early week of February 4-10.
2/05/79 City requested meeting for 2/7/79; Kammeyer Lynch not fin- ished with review and not ready for meeting until 2/12 or 2/19; City stressed 2/13.
2/08/79 City staff met with Superintendent of CUSD to discuss pool status and Valley and Basswood street improvements.
2/09/79 City provided Kammeyer Lynch with printed material on over-
flow rim system, design standards, underwater lights, recom- mended vehicle access to and landscaping of pool deck and circular type showers; City corrected its letter of 1/15/79: 12/30-in that Kammeyer Lynch reported that recessed gutters
with lane-line storage would have to be designed at added cost; staff recommended against the recessed gutters and re-
quested Kammeyer Lynch to look into deck level design with integral surge trench.
2/13/79 Conference 9: Kammeyer Lynch agreed with value engineering team recommendations except: Pool gutter to be de- signed with lane-line storage gutter; 12' pool depth; AAU standards to be incorporated; cost increase for change in shape
of pool to be provided; vacuum DE system to be used; 2 pump system to be investigated; addition of solar study will be added cost to contract; deck area to remain as designed; con- cession area ch-nge would be added cost which will be investii gated; comparison cost of block wall to be investigated; pool building exit to pool to remain as designed; cost implica- tions of closing openings in roof to be investigated; radiant heaters to remain in pool building; bag room to remain as de-
signed; locker rooms to remain as designed; entrance to locker rooms from lobby to remain as designed except turn- stiles to be replaced by double doors; electrical outlets above vanities to be bar type; elimination of staff restrooms cost savings to be investigated and consideration of being
bid alternative, first and room to be modified but not elim- inated or combined with class area; observation bay windows to be straight; manager's office to remain as designed; entry doors to remain as designed; change of glass area at entry to be done if authorized in writing; and lighting in building to remain as designed.
2/14/79 Planning Commission adopted CUP158 with no changes from cor- rected draft so no copy sent to Kammeyer Lynch.
2/15/79 Kammeyer Lynch submitted costs for redesign of entry (removal of glass) at $1,850 with 5 working days and redesign of con- cession and storage areas at $9,300 with 15 working days, cost of change of pool shape forthcoming; Ramsey replaced Warkentin as Kammeyer Lynch Project Manager.
7
DATE ACTION
2/79 Kammeyer Lynch submitted post final probably construction cost with cost control items change and deletion list
($1,373,837 and $181,090).
2/22/79
3/01/79
Kammeyer Lynch to provide information specified in Confer-
ence 9 (2/13/79) on 2/26/79 or 2/27/79 per City inquiry.
City queried Kammeyer Lynch on lack of receipt of information due from Conference 9 (2/13/79) and told would be provided
3/5/79 or 3/6/79 (delay due to inability to obtain material and another hot project).
at $11,300, elimination of staff restrooms would be a sav- ings of $2,900, provided updated cost control items change and deletion list for $166,214.
3/06/79 Kammeyer Lynch reported additional cost of pool shape change
3/22/79 City provided printed material to and informed Kammeyer Lynch: To provide cost estimates of different types of gutter systems
so decision could be made, pool depth to be 13' at deep end; gutter piping size to be adequate to perform reliably; re- vised recommendation needed on underwater lighting; cost of constructing "Ut' or "L" shaped pools needed for comparison; cost impact of providing future fourth diving board; provide results of investigation of two pump system; chlorine room vent to be towards parking lot; additional solar study not desired; investigate solar system at Camp Pendleton; remov- able crowd control stanchions at bleachers desired; provide
results of investigation on electrical outlets for pool deck equipment; provide information on proposed 110 volt vacuum; provide information on night security lighting and night swimming lighting; reconsider of landscape design per staff submitted recommendation; provide cost of coin-operated deck lockers for alternative bid item; provide information on pool covers; City does not desire redesign of concession area; provide cost savings in types of wall material; pro- vide cost implications of closing openings in roof, redesign of roof and use of HVAC; screened partition between bag and locker rooms with small lockable pass-through, relocate hall- way doors to bag rooms; portable bag holders in bag rooms as
alternative bid item; entry to locker rooms from lobby to be without turnstiles and with double doors nearest to counter; staff restroom not to be eliminated but carried as alternative bid item; glass at entry not desired but not a redesign function at additional cost of $1,850 and 5 working days; foregoing information needed for necessary decisions; inform City when information to be provided so meeting in
early April can be planned; provide revised timetable.
4/09/79 Conference l@: Kammeyer Lynch reported: Cost savings of gutter with built-in lane-line storage is $3,682 less than
gutter without lane-line storage; will comply with AAU stan- dards without platform,with 2-1 meter boards, 2-3 meter boards, 13' depth, Maxiflex boards, 6 Durafirm standards; proper
8
DATE ACTION
4/09/79 (contd. )
redesign of gutter piping system in progress; use of recom-
mended recreation lighting of pool with 50% reduction of
underwater lighting for cost savings of $13,950; cost break- down for change in pool shape at $5,900 for fees and $5,400
for construction (+ $10,000 for mechanical - $2,500 for structural - $2,100 for electrical); additional solar study would be at additional cost and three weeks delay of time; Kammeyer Lynch will not examine Camp Pendleton solar; will
investigate locating additional stanchion anch-ors for crowd
control; 110 and 220 electrical outlets on pool deck; 20- foot candles at water level recommended for night competi- tion at a cost of $75,000; turf area revised per staff
(Parks 6 Recreation) recommendation; coin-operated deck
lockers to be included as bid alternative; pool cover sample to be provided (provided April 16); concession area to remain as designed; exterior wall material cost compari-
son provided ($19,824 for vertical scored block versus $18,880 for concrete block); locker rooms' roof to remain as
designed (open-aired and screened); bag rooms to remain as designed with screened partition into locker rooms; locker room entrances changes previously incorporated; staff rest-
rooms to remain as designed with toilet relocated as bid
deduct item for interior accouterments; glass at entry breakdown of costs for $1,850; and revised timetable pro-
vided with concern for compliance. Tape showed additional
information: OSA not involved in plan check review; Kam-
meyer Lynch provided with City's copy of League of Califor-
nia Cities Solar Seminar; specified deck equipment can be provided for turn-key operation or City provide with Kam- meyer Lynch to provide list of items from Lincoln Supply.
Kammeyer Lynch reported change of Ron Bartlo to Thomas Runa
as Project Designer; provided project schedule from 4/12/79
through 8/6/79 - start of construction.
4/10/79
4/13/79 City Manager directed staff to prepare memo on why change shape of pool and costs.
4/16/79
4/18/79
Kammeyer Lynch provided sample and literature on pool cover.
City commented on Kammeyer Lynch report of Conference 10 via
telephone and in writing: Location of parking lot entrance
off Basswood; lane-line storage (per sheet S-6) with racks approved; underwater lighting at 70 lumens/square foot ap- proved; information on change in shape of pool forthcoming;
Kammeyer Lynch to provide cost/benefit ratio based on O%,
33%, 50% 6 100% supplementation of pool's annual heating re-
requirement; Kammeyer Lynch to -investigate locating addition-
al stanchion anchors for crowd control; 20-foot candles of
illumination at deck/water level approved with ability to
70 in future; pool cover sample received and to be optional
delete item; use vertical scored block on pool building as
recommended; Kammeyer Lynch to inform City if bag room doors to be eliminated or one-piece doors; staff restrooms to be
optional delete item; redesign fees of glass area entry are
9
DATE
4/18/79
(contd. )
4/20/79
4/ 23/ 79
4/25/79
4/25/79
4/26/79
ACTION
excessive and could be change order during construction; Kammeyer Lynch to provide list of deck equipment items that City can provide or be alternate bid item; proposed sched- ule received and City will do its part to insure compli- ance; and construction cost estimate to be reaffirmed be- fore final of plans so optional bid items can be identified.
Public Works staff submitted report to City Manager (in
Public Works Administrator's absence) on cost to change shape of pool; report returned for submission to Public Works Administrator on 4/23/79.
City telecon with Kammeyer Lynch: received by Kammeyer Lynch; Kammeyer Lynch concerned about decision to change shape of pool; lane-lines to be on racks in gutter; Kammeyer Lynch reported solar cost/benefit ratio analyses would cost $2,000 to $3,000 and three weeks' time to do another study; City determined another solar study would not be made.
Letter of 4/18/79 not
City telecon with Kammeyer Lynch: Kammeyer Lynch received 4/18/79 letter this date; lane-lines are on racks in pool gutter; locating of additional stanchion anchors for crowd control being done; bag room door to be one-piece solid; listing of deck equipment being prepared; Kammeyer Lynch informed that recommendation to change shape of pool going to City Council; Kammeyer Lynch will commence work when Council makes decision on pool shape; City to provide Kam- meyer Lynch with letter recommending no further study on solar heating; Kammeyer Lynch working on pool budget and requested fund status; Kammeyer Lynch given $1,280,053 available less $95,400 for fees leaving $1,184,653 for construction.
Public Works staff reviewed solar feasibility study provided by Kammeyer Lynch; Public Works Administrator provided City Manager with project schedule submitted by Kammeyer Lynch, status of compliance of schedule to date, analysis of future
compliance and noncompliance of contract by architect.
City telecon with Kammeyer Lynch: Who requested expeditious information on shape of pool; Kammeyer Lynch informed City, who acknowledged, that to stay with budget: No solid roof over equipment room; use 150# chlorine container but design for 2T to be put in later (cost of crane, etc., $40,000); retractable bleachers out; pool cover storage area out; pool cover out; 20-foot candle lighting not affordable ($65,000, but could borrow some from parking lot lighting) so to be in design and put in later; eliminate landscape walls and curbs, north parking lot out ($100,000) except for along street; City stated solid fence around north, west and east
side of pool per CUP/EIR; requested costs on items to be submitted.
10
DATE
4/26/79
4/30/79
5/04/79
5/07/79
5/15/79
5/16/79
5/18/79
ACT I ON
Superintendent of CUSD informed City that School Board would be disappointed if north parking lot were deleted; not con- cerned with lighting thereon; Civic Arts Center construction starts in September; told pool plans and specifications due in May with construction to begin September, 1979; Public Works staff researched files for dimensions of all pool sizes considered.
Kammeyer Lynch informed that architectural agreement was modified to substitute Ramsey as Project Manager and Runa as Project Designer. Kammeyer Lynch provided site plan showing parking lot entrance from Basswood. Kammeyer Lynch reempha- sized concern over delay in decision on shape of pool; proj-
ect schedule of April 12 is hence voided; delays in restart- ing efforts. Kammeyer Lynch telecon with City: Inquired as to status of shape of pool and told to Council on 5/15/79 (Kammeyer estimates delay of 4-5 weeks due to consultant's work). Kammeyer Lynch provided cost of deletable items:
Solid roof over equipment room $30,000; two-ton chlorine tanks $10,000; retractable bleachers $43,601 (previously $35,602); pool cover storage area, cover and reels $14,368 (previously $11,490); 20-foot candle lighting $61,050; landscaped walls and curbs $35,000; north parking lot $83,534 for total of $277,553.
Public Works Administrator informed City Manager about results of value engineering review, changing shape of pool, costs
of changing shape, cost control items, funding restraints and requested Council confirmation to change shape of pool, delete solar, but design for future addition and delete all cost control items.
City informed Kammeyer Lynch about City's understanding of Kammeyer Lynch loss of design team at time of receipt of value engineering review, delays in receipt of full cost in- formation on change in shape of pool (2/13/79-4/13/79); sub- sequent City staff review and could not get to Council until May 15; provided Kammeyer Lynch with copy of May 4 report to City Manager.
City Council approved change in shape of pool for $11,300 ($5,900 in fees, $5,400 for construction); cost of control items determined to be optional bid items and requested that a solar report was due to determine if solar to be included, AB910, #17.
Kammeyer Lynch informed by telephone of Council's decisions; and told City that solar study of 12/6/78 and cost figure still good; system considered is gas boiler supplemented by solar to maintain heat; Kammeyer Lynch informed letter to follow.
Proposal for AB910, #18 to City Council on 5/29 to consider status of VE recommendations and feasibility of solar system for pool prepared by staff, revised and approved. Staff
11
ACTION -- DATE
5/18/79 queried VET as to their opinions on functionability and (contd.) efficiency of design and mechanics of pool complex as presented in plans reviewed and with VET recommendations.
Kammeyer Lynch informed of Council meeting on 5/29/79. Staff prepared detailed pool chronology.
5/22/79 Staff prepared VE study recommendation/actions to date report. VET and Kammeyer Lynch informed of their re- quested attendance at City Council meeting on 5/29/79.
Nay 29, 1979
"2. AB #10 - Supplemmt $118 - REPORT ON WIWING FOOL - Value
Engineering Study and Solar Heating.
lhis item is an the Agenda tonight at Council request. We've pre-
I've attempted to
pared an information package which is formidable, but that's because the involvement in the project todate has been foxmidable. sumnanie some of the basic issues in a Memrandm, with an attacht dis- cussing sm solar energy issues. mere are two basic parts to this Agenda Bill. &e (1) is Discussion, and any Council direction that Council wishes to give Staff concerning the general issue of the swimning pool itself and the Value Engineering effort. Reports Concerning Tnclusion of Solar Heating. also the issues that have been brought into play todate and the last two lengthy exhibits are Status of the Value Engineering Report todate wherein each of the items is listed and then the action taken todate is discussed
And, the last item (an 11-page sumnary of actions--total actions todate re- garding the pool) listed on the exhibits as Pool Chrcmology. I think the first thing should be--let IIE give you a brief sumary, a brief discussion, if you will, on Value Engineering, and then I'll have Mr. Qgleston introduce the people on the Value Engineering Teamwho are here.
who are professionals in their various areas -- be it design, be it construction, be it operations. And, it is intendednormally not to be a plan check function,
but to be an objective, unfettered response to the basic design. The same thing which is Value Engineering's strong point is also its weak point. a pup of individuals to analyze a set of drawings withaut benefit of the constraints that the design professionals who are involved in the project have
been working with. Ihe result of this can be their analysis is, if you will, not cluttered up by "givens". And the results can be suggestions--it can either be --result in an outstanding recomnendation or a ridiculous suggestion. understand all of the physical, legal or political constraints that may be involved in a project. of the Value Engineering Team who are here.
at this point is perhaps concentrate on the Value Engineering part and open it up to Council discussion at a later time when VE processes worked to Council satisfaction and we can cme back and I will give a brief sumpary on the solar
Part-
The seccmd (2nd) part is the Sumnary and Basic We've attempted to suumrize
Value Ehgineering is
I a relatively new process wherein a design at a given stage is reviewed by people
It asks of
It is totally free.
I can be either one. (Change) . . .nor is it supposed to
I think with that, I'll ask Mr. Eggleston to introduce the ders I think perhaps the best thhg to do
Joe Eggleston
Tom Rma, Earl 14. Dakan and Carl Berry (See Minutes for details) (In essence) Introduced Russ sheldm, Ed Bright, Jerry Ramsey,
Vice-Mavor Skotnicki
I think I'll accept Mr. Beckman's suggestion to attack I would like to leave design, the pool part of this, first. the Value Engineering design, out of this
-I-
discussion simply because we reached a decisim on that last meting.
and we can do that, if necessary. Finally, I think we ought to attack the solar
system as a final item. that particular part of the process for getting the pool built was brought up by Councilman Lewis and I should like him to open up the discussion if he cares to on the Value wineering aspects and we'll carry on frcm there.
And, therefore, 'to reconsider that, we should have a form1 action on a reconsidezatiun on the pool
Now, the Value Engineering Report was and a reopening of
Mr. Bussey
Excuse m, if I may, Mr. Mayor. I was not aware that the ar&itects were not there and it is just possible that some of the questions raisedmdd benefit both those who sat on the Value Engineering Team and the architects' input. That
is unfortunate, I don't how what the problem is. . . . . .the remainder is deleted because as I recall they all shmed up shortly thereafter ..........
- Joe Eggleston
. . . . . (h essence) continued with introductions.. . . . . (See Mirmtes for detail)
Councilmn Lewis
Yes, Mr. Vice-Mayor. The rest of the counCil--as youhuw, I was concerned that meeting about the pool design and I'm still concerned and I talked to Mr.
Beckman and I had saw commeplts frcxn Mrs. Chase earlier that I had notes an. m, it just did not seem--everything that I should have been informed of was available to me. Therefore, I asked and I did receive the Value Engineering Rec-datim. I went through them and then I had a chance to talk to e. Bright and based upon som of our discussions, I approached Vice-Mayor Skotnicki and had him read it and then I voiced som of my concerns and that is why it is on the Agenda tonight. Sam of the things that are mentimed here -- on the pool itself, there are 14 recommdations, or 16. And, of the 16, 14 (change) ... .and that was my greatest cuncern: Whether -- I don't haw if these gentlmm have
dune a good job far us, or not. Now, this 1.34- (?) dollar operation, and for my own satisfactim, I thought perhaps for yours, we should go through this and ask
sme questions. things here that have bothered me--I've gone through the report and I want to know about them and I asked Hr. Skotnicki about them and that is why the thing is on the Agenda right nuw. The change is -- like &en we first picked up -- when the cdttee agreed Jh-meyer Lynch a great deal of discussion and if I recall correctly, and Mr. Skotnicki yuu'11 have to assist me on this, dealt with the alminim type of base for the pool and going.through me staff report here at the very end as far as the date and the action, Kamneyer Lynch apparently agrd with that, but apparently sething is wrong with it or it is costing taxpayers (?)
sanething, but we've gme to this gunite process, and if I recall correctly from the citizens' input, a great deal of this went to those involved in the pool camnittee and this was also discussed. Nm, these are things and for my clwn peace of mind I want to know about because that thing is going to be here long after I'm
gone and I just want to make sure what we're getting is the very best for the
camramity.
To
I realize that staff has asked questions that there is certain
Those are the only coLrments I have, skotty.
Mr. Bussev
(indicating re gunite v. alumhim question) I think basically was a staff
-2-
decision as to which way to go. ago, I did distribute that to each Councihxrber as an information item in your boxes and gave you a copy of the report as to why they reccxrmmded after her investigation. to that item and review her report with you.
Lynn Chase did an extensive report. Sorne Mlnths
So, in addition to the architects, you nay want tks. Chase to speak
I think, Councilman Lewis, to basically answer the first question. Probably why the Value mineering and why so my comnents from Value Ehgineering as far as the pool let's say whether it be right or whether it be wrong or other peoples' opinicar, I think something that has to be made clear that as an architectural team, one of the things in putting together the pool plans is that basically for 90% suhittal to the Value Engineering Team, I dm't really think that that was truly accurate. for the cmplete complex was to 9077.
CO[I'%S to a decision making progress and actually what we call prograruning was not done to the pool. brought aut by Value Engineering which I think quite hcmestly many of those particular items would have been scrutinized and simply dealt with our particular consultant
team corrected by those particular questims. So that is just in response to probably the staff's report and how we got to where we are. You're second question dealing with concrete versus altminiun, I think one of our responsibilities as an architect is basically to explain the differences, the pros and cons to the City, the advantages versus the disadvantages 77, I think because of staff recamendations and also the dollars and cents inwhichwe had to put together a camplete program,
it was recammded at that particular tim, it was reconmended that we go with gunite basically because of cost efficiency--capital improvement costs at that particular tirne.
Many of the things in which we have program& within the building However, many of the my decisions in which
Therefore, there were a nuher of questions that were of course
Councilman Lewis
In the firm that actually handled the pool design itself, I understand you leased this out and a different firm picked it up. pool design, you mean when the evaluation cdttee got a hold of that they had not completed their design for the pool?
This firm that did the actual
That is correct. I dd probably say the building and the submittal of go"/, that was programmd and actually delineated 90% cqlete. or the pool plans and the facilities adjacent to the pool, pool equipnt and so forth was probably designed to 4.0%. It was just going past the program stage and of course, yes, we agreed with Value lbgineexing because we think it is a healthy approach as well.
fairly even sure about it. of experts @ve us advice and basically we're just not to a 9a completion stage. things that came out through the Value Engineering Report. There are many decisions necessary by the City to give us the programnecessary to actually even then develop the pool and the pool program.
Councilman Lewis
Probably the building
But, we had not taken it to the point in which we are able to say, well we're
I think there's my We use a cansultant team-a panel
Well, how much of the pool was cqleted as far as the design that was submitted to our people. (change)
-3-
Tom Runa
. . .we're talking about differences in cost savings and so forth which I'm sure would have shaken out through the completed design of this particular pool. I think that theprogram is basically straightforward. I don't think that there is a number of problms with the complex today. responsibility is of course to get the most pool, the mst recreational benefit for the dollar. And that is a major task, concern of oms presently.
I think that the biggest
Councilman Lewis
Tnen your fim does agree with the cancept of aluminim base, I man the gunite instead of the aldnim?
Tom Runa
That is correct. program for your tax dollars. For your dollars today, it is going to get you the most
Lm Chase
I think he covered it very well by saying that cost was the primry factor that was the recarrmendation against the alminiun pool and Jhmeyer Lynch brought back to the City the high cost of aluminiun pools that were bid in both custom
and saddleback (something). In the meantime, we did a look into the existing aldnium in Souther Califomia , such as at South Gate Pool and I dan't have the report in fmnt of me, Mr. Bussey. pool that we looked into andwe talkedto the operators and the Crown Valley Parkway Pool was just in the final stages of completion so we had no experience factor in that swimnkg pool. But, the report that was given to youwas based on
the recdticm and the carmats of the people frun the South Gate Pool. And, checking into a swimroi7g pool in Northern California, .... a superintendent of schools who had been operating an a1-m pool for 7 years and while I was at Superintendent Crawford's Office, he called that district and asked them for a reconmndation on their altaninium pool and based on the infomation we were given, frum that mm, he felt there -re many problems pertaining to electrolysis, corrosion, imbalances of cherrricals--trying to maintain the pool and had gone to a great expense with that particular pool in trying to eliminate the electrolysis and thought that they had not completely done so. So we raised these questions as considerations to weigh against some of the purported advantages of havjng an altlTlinium pool.
Crown Valley Parkway was the other aluninium
Councilman Lewis
The maintenance factor, then, was the key as far as between the ---the cost factor,is that what you're saying?
Lvnn Chase
Cost was the primary factor and then sm of the dissatisfactions with the aluminium pools that were expressed by the two people that we had talked to.. ....
Mr. Bussey
originally, the aluminium was recarmended because while it was expected that there would be an initial cost, sunewhat higher than gmite, the long
-4-
I : 1 i !
i I-
I
I t 1
I i
i I
tem maintenance would be less expensive. years afterwards some of them were spending significant amounts of mmey trying to maintain.
Lynn's investigation showed impact
Councilman Lewis
. . . .caning back to the base, Kamneyer Lynch did make that recarmrendation according to these notes I have here to that and is it because of the cost factor or the maintenance that you went dong with the @te concept because if I recall correctly, now, in OUT original presentation, this is dmt they pushed for, if
I remenher correctly-- an aluminium pool.
Vice-Mavor Skotnicki
I know it was the subject of some significant discussicm. I do not recall, however, that the outcome was a serious leaning in one direction.
Tom RUM
%is is the basic assunpticm, yes. The lcmgnm for the alminium versus
concrete or gmite.
pool. higher.
The on-going maintenance costs wouldbe less for the aluminim The capital improvemnt costs, huwever for the alurninium would be slightly
This is what our figures, our background is based (?) on. (change)
Note: Before and after the change, I deleted everything hear said.
I was very interested in the Value Engineering kccmmdations , too. hd, I tbught they all, to me, seemed very logical even though I don't necessarily understand all the technicalities. Actually, I would like to see themall implemnted. The idea that it muld save dtenance or it would be a cost savings s particuarly interested in. be thlz2g: whim a&d--fVk--
L w. midxnzla, wmch I had not known before, did I v T
unherstand you correctl? that we hired Wyer Lynch to design the pool and they fmd it out to someone else?
Councilman Lewis
I believe, if I recall correctly, Mrs. Casler, way badk when we first went into it, but we hired them as the overall oeprators of this and then they were supposed to pravi.de us with professiunal, youknow, a professional pool designer d if I rmenber correctly, Mr. skotnicki.. .I think that was the way it was set out.
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
... I think this is the way it works out, I think this is the way I understood
it. -
Councilman Lewis
... to ne, the things I have in my notes and the notes are old, but it dealt with the solar system and the aluminim pool concept was what I had down and I was
-5-
greatly dissappointed as to what came out of this. I really appreciate what Mrs . Chase and pk. Bedanan brought forth in this evaluation concern, because it really
Opmed my eyes as to what was goiq on.
Vice-Mayor skotnicki
Wile I don't disagree with the agreenmts arrid at between staff, the Value Rgineering Team and the Ka~~yw Lynch architectural team, on a nuniber of the issues were not accepted, I have ~011~3 questions. N ow, I don't how who will answer the questions, or 1'11 leave that to staff. My first question appears
on in changing the depth of the pool on the first page, item #4 under Pool. My concern there is that in changing from 4 feet to 3-1/2 feet, there is in the note a caution in that by doing do, the pool will probably not be used or couldnot be used for Olympic meets, I duubt that we'll have any, but perhaps .... however
it meazls that regional mets will not be possible. Now, I der if the school was asked about that.
Athletic Director (Nr. Hines) -sp-
I don't have any knowledge that we've been asked. me canversatian between he and Mr. Skotnicki took place without benefit of a microphone for Mr. Hines and is therefore mstly inaudible. Essentially, he "didn't like it."
Vice-Mavor Skotnicki
You have to cansider what was the report-thatw we want to make it practical for the use of the smaller children and in order to do that you've got to reduce
it from 4 to 3-1/2 feet and that is perfectly okay with me.. .I'm willing-to accept that so long as everybody has a chance to put his couple of cents worth in that evaluation.
I
hst all of your highschool meets are 25 yard meets, which mgafls that they will be swimning the width, rather than the length of the pool and while it
is a sacrifice, I think we dandidly said that we really didn't expect any major MU meets in Carlsbad and the sacrifice from 4 to 3-1/2 feetwas to accolIlodate the use of that end of the pool in training younger children and in m&ing it available
for them to use and if I'm incorrect ......
Tom Runa
(In response to Mr. hear's question relative to adding 6 inches of water, he indicated) you can do anything you want to do. All it takes is money. (change) (He further observed that we have a one-pool facility and that an additional pool for wamq was required in mst events. national-type meets, basically state level--3-1/2 feet would be accamdating to this level of canpetition and would also be mre far reaching for recreational programs and this is the reason that this particular item cam about)
I left aut mst of the conversation between Rma and hear out --
it dealtwith cost of adding 6 inches, skimner, adding bricks, etc, Mr. Dakan noted it was against the law.and wasn't practical anyway. Mr. hear conceded.
In such case, we would be hosting basically
Note:
-6-
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
staff says staff agrees to all lO(a), etc. that means that staff agreed to each one of those in toto and therefore all of those are being accepted.
staff?
Proceeding to pool mechanics and engineering, items lO--I assume that when
Is that correct, (theydecided it was page -6-)
I think basically, mst all of the mechanical (Skotty interrups with "they are very technical itans") yes, (Beckman respanding that they were) and most of them were covered by the architect's representative when he was CourEenting that you know this is the stuff that was basically at the 4.077 stage and they would have probably caught this. Fine, we agreed with most of the reconmendations and suggested to the architect that asstrning there was no substantial costs impact that they be included and if they were they muld feed back to us and we would make decisions on idividual items.
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
The pool deck, page --I'm skipping the solar system since we will discuss that as the final item--under pool deck the first item says = this is a recamnendatio by the Value Engineering Team-reduce the square footage of concrete deck area. That sounds like a rmney-saving opportunity and that what was recormended for. agreed only if reduction can be turned to cost savings and still meet the design criteria for capacity. I should 1Tk-e to have a response frm Kauneyer Lynch telling re why the deck area should remain just that way.
Staff
Wyer Lynch disagreed. deck area to remain as designed.
Basically to reduce the the deck area to either what we call hardscape (concrete) or softscape, which dd be planting, there is not a sigpificant cost sasrhgs. the time you irrigate plants the thing that is on-going of course is your mintemme costs. in hard surface or decking area can actually be used by cmcrete. But still we tried to give you or give the City a basic appeal to the cuncrete deck did not simply make it sterile, but also include some planting within the pool deck area. We tried to keep a balance of about 60% decking area plantscape or landscape area, Basically, with the abundance, or with the shape of the pool, with the perimeter walls and security systems we found no real sigificant reason to'decrease the decking to increase or then change the wall system because we basically felt we needed to have
that area no ratter uhat we had as far as hardscape or softscape. We felt no real considerable costs savings as stated prior and this is the reason that we left that as it is.
By
To assert the point, there is mre programsavailable actually to be used
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
Does the Value Engineering Teamhave anything to say about that? About the size of the cost saes--were you able to come up with any ballpark figure as to
Ed Bright
We did
anybody else
haw much would be saved? -
do some calculations.
rawabers thm.
I dm't have them with me, I don't knm if (change)
-7-
Becausfs of the tape c-e, I'm notmy$ze followurtg voice mth prior and as s who is s aking, but have compared Ed EbrigE:
Ed Ebright
... the mininun or IIliudmLpn area be for pool decking. What we're reccmmending
We're saying actually reduce the amxlnt of concrete deck area around
I believe it was mentimed this is far in excess of the
here is not doing away with concrete pol decking and then install soft landscaping or whatever. the pool and possibly shrinking the perimeter of the pool area which should be
(something) shaped.
area currently utilized in nm-swim program and another concern we had, I dcm't know if it is in here or not, but the distance from the pool building itself to the pool is a very long distance and we felt possibly that distance could rn be (sorrr?thing) out and possible repositioning the pool so that actually the pool itself mdd b ecloser to the pool building.
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
Do you recall how mch possible saving you might accrue frm this.. . . (sameone is ripping paper and cmversation between Skotty and aright is not entirely audible. Based on what I can hear and notes , Ebright says its way up in the 1,000's and skotty says it is significant)
Ed Ebright
. . .well we're just using the figure of $1.50 per square foot for cmcrete and I belive Carl or Earl has some figures as far as the relationship between square footage of water area to square footage of concrete area. a considerable time in talking the square footage of the area . . . . (not audible) excess of
?!a1 Berry
In fact we spent
what needed.
You have a safety prbblem there, too, because the distance fran the locker roans to the pool where you have children who just take off numing from the locker room across that ccmcrete at-ea and we were talking abaut taking the pool was--at an angle and taking it a little bit mre in line with the building so that you cdd cut daJn the area.
Vice-Mayor Skotnicki
You're talking about a significant aMxIllt of redesign work. Is that true.
Carl Bern
I think it is a matter of repositioning the pool, the way the pool is going to go in there, but I dont know.
Not able to identify
it is a matter of ... well (-thing) doing that or/also/changing the configuration of the outside perimeter walls, so you mdd be talking about a little design wrk, there dd be significant changes in the overall perineter design of the area of the pool.
-8-
Also not able to identify, but think it is 3eq-hey--e€ Russ Sheldon
the input that the City or the user has put into it.
pool, we felt there was more area than was normally used in the pool. is a decision that staff and everybody else has to make. Do you need all that room? And, if you don't need it, then you can delete it, Either the concrete or the landscaping. him you need this ITfllch roan and then he's evaluating the cost of concrete versus a maintenance item of landscaping and if you need that IIlLtch area, then he is correct. he is working unk and do some redesign work. $15,000 item as far as savings, but you would not have a s ZIlllCh space as what your plans show for nm.
(I'm sure)
This is one of the areas where your value engineering team doesn't knaw As people working with
So, this
But I believe the architect has a feeling that you've told
If you don't need that much area, then he has to change his concept that But you mild be talking about
Vice-Mayor
All right. Let's bounce the ball back into staff's lap. What is the reaction to the c-ts of the architect and the value engineering team. agreed here and said if reduction can be turned to cost saving and still meet design criteria.
Staff
It was "iffy" feedback because from my recollection, we were constrained by the basic site develmt plan that had been approved by all the agencies that
were involved and the question was how do we develop that land. I think. as has been pointed out by the value engineering personnel, their recoxmendation of costs savings would accrue to us if we didn't develop it another way, but didn't develop it at all. of the pool, the building the location of the fences, our reactim was if you can
show us that it can be a substantial cost saving to go back and basically e the basic design, fine. And if not, let's get on with the show. position.
And, since the site devel-t plan had been approved, the configuration
lhat was our
Vice-Mayor
Did we have sane specific *ut that Karmzeyer Lynch had to use and they had in fact make that mch space, concrete in the design.
Mr. l3eClumI-l
Is it necessary?
The answer to that wuld be very subjective. The basic configuration, the location of the pehter walls to conform with the requirments and the EIR for the project, the amunt of landscaping or available space inside the general location of the pool, the orientation of the pool with regards to--that was all function of the site development program that came through first the joint meeting of the school board and the parks and recreation cmnission and the pool canmittee and then came to the Council and then Fient subsequently through the planning dssion to get a (change) . . .the project down, we wdd have had to have gone
through that process again.
Vice-Mayor
We get around to making the final decision 0x1 this, we can throw all this in the hopper and see if we come up with any additional instructions for staff.
-9-
Councilman Anear
That pool was designed to have 600 people using it at one
time. k won't get 600 in there in one day if you have a
Smtana in the middle of July in that pool and that's a basic flaw. In checking with Oceanside, they never had a day when they get over 200 people in their pool.
And, when you operate a SCJimning pool, you let the kids in for 2 hours, you clear them all out and you bdng two mre in. frcnn 8 in the mrning to 8 at night.. . . .. . ..... his point is that the cuncrete decking -- the aMJLolt of concrete decking was in light of the nuher of people the pool was designed to accmdate -- feels use is over inflated.
Mr. Vice-byor. 600 at one the.
You don't leave them in there
Vice-Mkvor
Concurred
Councilman Lewis
it was.. .this is what you're saying is the real p-oblem with our information to Kamneyer Lynch, because we keep telling them --is that right, not Pe- because the original concept was a "2" shape, right. a 'VI and then a rect-ar shape.
Mr. ~eckman, then, the changing from a "Z" to a 'V' to a 'Z" or hawever ..
Then it went to an 'Z" then Is this what we're saying.
The original concept was a "2" shape. That's the one that was processed through the joint pool cdttee school board parks and recreation ccwnittee meeting. Between that time and the time it was presented to Council, it was suggeted by the architect to change it from a "Z" to a 'V' shape, but it was in the pool building and the perimeter and the general decking area was all substantially the SaIE.
Councilmn Lewis
element and what these gmtlemn have to work with as far as the major changes that we've asked them to do. they have to stop, redo the whole thing--it's a money concept that we're talking about.
And, then, this is what we're talking about when we talk about the cost
hrytim we ask for a change, Is this right?
Mr. Be*
Ha, Ha, as Mr. Runa so candidly pointed out, you can do anything you want
if you've got enough the mney. the contract and if they have to go back (sanething) an element of the design and do it again and - back, it is tirne lost in the design, it is tine in the constructim and the escalation ... all these things we try to take into consideration when we made these judgnent calls, you know, as to where to go forward, where to say stop, let's bring it to Council 'cause it's worth discussing mre, these day-to- day decisions we have to make.
We're paying them on an hourly basis as part of
Vice-Mayor
Well, to make a point at this point in the discussian, all of these, most
-10-
of these items happen to be cost saving. Of course, we're all interested'in the ammt of mmey that is be- laid out to put this pool up and I know we've gone to sonmihat -- tvm steps forward and five steps backward, now, for the last six to eight years.
going to cost us. a little bit late in the game. $lS,OOO is not a small ammt to me and perhaps I'm just not. . . .
But still, and of course the longer we delay, the mre it is Nm, it is a matter of weim these things, we're getting
I'm with you Skotty. For example, when we make the change, I'm afraid,
it may nm q to $16,000 by the time these gentlemn get through with us or we get through with thm, because we changed it from a 'TI" shape to a rectangdar we went up and so that is my only concern because when I really go through this, you know, we've bluwn the assignnaent because the way the pool is really intended is not the way it carne out based cm future findings. stutter/intesrupted.. . And then staff, I mean,
Vice-Mayor
Same of these things are coming to light now and maybe just too late to
do anything about them without extraordinary expense in the changes and leads me to the next step cm page 10 where the Value Engineering Team talks about turf sinply because of the maintenanceproblems and I can understand that and I'mnot a pool expert, in fact, I dan't even bother to go swimning anme, but I know that txyining to maintain an area when you've got a turfed area inside the pool isn't going to cause problems and yet it was decided, I assme it was decided to leave it in except with sum revision. happened on thatrecmnendatian. Would Mr. Bedamn tell us what
me question of the inclusion of landscaping in side the perimeter is one
that goes right back to (sanething) and I think the inclusion of landscaping, the inclusion of turfed areas which is really soft relxaticm area was strongly supported by the previous Parks &Recreation Director and given all of the concerns of the leaf fall frm trees and grass clippings and the associated things, it was still
his cansidered opinion that it was a worthwhile design element (change) to be included ...part of the concern.
Vice-Mayor
Is the turf area ramining in the design? Or, has it been taken aut or partially taken out.
Beckman deferred to David Bradstreet
It is to be ranained with scm mdifications. okay, there were turf in
I believe the east side is
two basic areas. there was sm turf an the east side of the pool. rexnakhg and the tiered level is out, is that correct. reductia.
There was turf on the north side of the pool inkiered levels and
There has been same
Vice-Mayor
Proceeding to the larger item which is the elimination of the parking lot.
-11-
Now that was presented to us at the last meeting as an optional item. accepted that as an optional item in approval at the last meeting, as I recall. And, therefore,I shall not bring it up any further than that since we still have
The Council
open on that ciie bids coxre in.
---\ Proceeding to page, I'm not going to discuss these it- that are technical and for which no cost saving is indicated, but there is a disagreemnt
\
fran what the Value Ehgineering Team said and even though in sonrt cases Ehey are not sirrrply technical, I'm not going to understand why they were mentioned as possible changes, since there were mre of a technical nature than they are cost savings and on which I'm more qualified to answer in the money end than I
am technical. kt's proceed then to page 13, at the top of the page, under pool building, item 6, it says eliminate the open-air locker room concept. And that is cmected, of course, to the next itemwhich says eliminate the radiant heater because you're going to be heating the outside. me but perhaps I over-simplified it. problans in bo th those areas.
disagreed with the Value Engineerkg Team. object of heating the outside is. try to heat it?
It makes sane sense to
Howwer, in each case, staf€ and the architect But the Value Engineering Team indicated som
what I would like to knuw is what the Do you ham open-air locker room concepts why
I Mr. Beckman
The purpose in using radiant heaters instead of hot air heaters is perhaps inherent in the very name of the item. to be done by radiation, rather than warnring air and mving it. there would be times when there would be people using the pool and they would be in there wet and it might be a little bit clq outside as we get certains"of the year and that radiant heating muld helpe to warm those individuals without wasting the energy in heating the walls and the deck nd the surround hareas. It is a relatively cannon way of providing heating for mechanics in large garages, for instance, and you're not wasting a lot of th e energy in heating the air which then goes right an out and is lost.
still be a functianal -.e so that warming systems could be available at times needed for people using the pool.
Councilman Lewis
The major portirxl of the heat is intended It was felt that
It is a, you know, we called to say "no", we thought it would
Mr. Vice-Mayor, I would have a question on this ri&t here, from my notes. Did Kamneyer Lynch design pools with this concept in use right now on this type of a heater. have any set up now that you've used that you used this type of radian heaters in operation.
Tow Rum
I mean on this problem that is mmtioned here about the open air, do you
Actuall~. as far as an ODW air locker roan. no. We do not. "e think it is a concept &:-has been tried kd prom and quite honestly one of the reasam for even going to the open air is of course to eliminate so mch of the condensation and the misture and the locker room feelinn that YOU have within a closed area. I v allows adds to the lcmgevity , proven longevity of the facility. this additional ventilation, minimal condehsation and therefore probably Radiationheaters are . It is again not to waste basically heating the air and this
that the facilitywarranted that type of open air
-12-
hident if ied
We are in fact right now mrking cm remodeling an existing facility built Had it been enclosed, in 1922 in Alhambra (change). . .the building was open air. and subjected to the condensaticm from the showers and whatever, it would have rotten away 20 years ago.
Councilman hear
fi. Vice-Mayor. You're radiant heating, if you've ever stood in front You have to stand directly underneath of an electric heater is direct heat. it. This is the way it is designed in these big buildings he is talking about. They use than a lot in garages. They put the heat right over where the mechanic is going to be because you get two or three feet off and you're going to freeze. Naw, this program is going to be used, they say, from 6:OO in the nmming until 1O:OO at night. be totally inadequate in the wktertinu!. And, contrary to Fjhat the gentlemn says, there are very, very few, if any, swhning pools that are using radiant heating and I can show you pools that are 50 years old that haven't collapsed frm rotting. features or the natural ventilation features in your shower roam, you eliminate the heating and a good architectural fimwill do that for you.
Lynn Chase
roof design, and we've been told that the cost was too expensive.
what the cost is, but it is a cost constraint andwe accepted it. that it will be cold in the wening and that we're planning an using the pool year ard, it will be cold.
Now, that might suffice in the surrmertime, but it is going to
If they are properly designed and you have your IIy3chnicdL ventilation
I ?%ink the staff has, from the very beginning, preferred to see a closed- We don't how Butwe'realize
Vice-Mayor
the Value En gheering Team insofar as control of the youth populatian in the pool. locker roan and that some areas do not have any visual supervision. should be eliminated because of the potential for problems with the kids. agreed, KarmEyer Lynch disagreed.
as designed? Would staff care to comnent?
I hope that staff and Kameyer Lynch were willing to accept the comnents of
Item 9, for example, points out thwe are a nrnnber of wasted areas in the These areas Staff What was the resolution, is it going to remain
Lynn Chase deferred to Carl Berry
You how, one of the problerns we have we're operating 9 Swimning pools over in Grossmant and only one of them has locker room, the rest of them are
school locker roans, but that really is &ere you're problems are. Every pool that I've ever worked at you've got to have definite control.
come into the pool after they leave the locker roam. Youknow, that is really the last check point. things that they shouldn't be brining out and make sure that they've met the State health law that they have taken a shmer that is whereyou can stop any kind ofproblem of kids running back and forth in and out of the locerk roam, and the pool that we have in Grossmt, 1 think, the probably the mst serious accident
If the people that
That is where you can stop them frcnn brining out all the
-13-
we've had was in a locker roam where the kids were slidding in the shmer and ,then they just slide right into the wall. control in there.
to see and you've got to be able for them to see you and hear and I think if you don't do that frm a liability standpoint, you're just asking for problms.
And you have definitely got to have You've got to have visual control and you've got to be able
Vice-Mavor
Would KamDieyer Lynch care to give IIE mre as to why they disagreed with the ccmnents regarding this matter.
Tom Runa
I think basically, it drops dawn to an overall program in which we had developed at a progaruning and also a preliminary develomt period. gone through quite extensive process to simply get these particular areas to accOmDdate all the programs and all the needs of the City and basically within this particular facility. Sowe of these particular it-, ''screw-off" areas-- not every particular corner, nook and cranny, can be available for obsemtim.
It is just impossible to meet all the criteria and still have that particular
entity. area and thus we provided that, but not every nook and cranny can be taken care of to facilitate the program.
We had
We tried in a majority of the instances to have a safe supervised locker
councilnaan Anear
Mr. Vice-Mayor. Back up on page 12, item 5, the last place of exit from the building locker roans from the pool deck should not be past the toilet, but should be by a checkperson and shower. 'Itat is an essential item, as the gentlaen frm Grossmxlt just mtioned. Wyer Lynch disagreed. Again, I just can't fathan this. In the pools I've been in, these are essential items and here we're just shrugging them off and saying, no they're aren't essential items and yet the man who is mst qualified is here to tell us they are.
Vice-kyor
I have a conmnt on that same item. Okay.. .
I think it is very necessary to have a course operatian fran the locker rocm, by the lockex roan attendant (change). . .one of the things that was accomplished by the design of the locker room facility was to have the restroom facilities operational without the complete locker facility operational. In other words, through gate system we could actually have the laves and the water
quads available for use, for say your swim team or whatever was in that particular facility, could enter the pool through the high school, use the restroams, but not be admitted to the showers or the dressing facilities. is a simple guard station at the exit of the pool, you simply assure that the health requirmts have been rnet a& the patrons of the pools have shawers. I myself, too, have competed, I've mrked in maintenance of pools, I've worked as a guard in many pools and I know the operations of pools. It is sanething that can be done and, of coulfse, again to facilite IIlllch mre flexibility in programs
It
-14-
we've tried to acmdate as many as possible, but we don't have the overbearing cost of actually havFng two staffs, both mn and women actually accormdate those
pools. That is some insight, hopefully, for your use. IJe've actually used the gate system to allow the restroom operatiad.
Vice-Mavor
Yes. ?hank you. Another small item an page 14, iten 13. Eliminate outlets
(It was pointed out to Mr. Skotnicki that vanities You say, eliminate the electrical outlets
over vanities. part of the restroom facility. were 'sinks'). over those vanities. saxhgs. me ask a question:
You'llhave to define that word for me.
I understand that.
Is this in the ladies'
The reason €or that was potentially dangerous areasjcost Staff disagreed, Kammyer Lynch disagreed, outlets to be bar type. Let Why are we @ding electric outlets over the sinks?
Mr. Becb
For those ;who want to shave, for, I'm not sure if another reason was for hhir drying....
Vice-Mayor
Well,
1 Primarily, the discussion
are as widely used in the mens' was relating to the use of hair dryers and they restroans as they are in the wmms' with' current hair stypes.* The suggestion made by the Value lhgjneering Team was a good one in that context and they suggested that instead of having the outlets that we provide wall-mmted blowers. and staff didn't think it would work and nm it is one of . . . . . 'Ihat is fine, but I just don't think it would work
Vice-Mayor
. . .nonetheless, I realize you want the finest pool this side of Heaven, but to provide separate and distinct outlets over sink so we can shave and use the bluw dryer is carrying the tolerance of the taxpayer to an &rem, in my view. I'm sorry, but is just the way I feel about it.
Carl Berry
standpoint and at the pools that I'm operating, I disconnected all of the electrical outlets because of the dryers. all youneed is sombody with wet feet on concrete and boy you're asking for it and that is the reason I asked that it be deleted and that is why we also recamended that if they needed the hair dryer business that they get at San Diego State, they have a wall mted dryer the kind you also use for your hair and hands.
I'm t€ie one who made that recammdation and it was purely frcnn a safety. -
Those are really high voltage, and
Ptr. Bradstreet
team that there was no potential safety hazard. We also agreed, Mr. Vice-Mayor, but we were assured by the architectural
-15-
Vice-Mayor
relocated. staff SO muld staff -lab why they disagreed.
Suggestions on page 15, item 16, that the tTlillELger's office should be Makes sense to me, however, staff disagreed. I hate to disagree with
&. Be(&IBn
Supervisiun. We felt the location was best where it is for supervision They can view from the pool office view the swhming pool area. of the pool,
Vice-Mayor
I will expect will put up with any inconveniences (change). . .. Your camrent comes from the person who is going to operate the pool and
Councilman hear
Item #18 - it is
in there for less than 8 1,850? You're talking about the type of windrrws they use in and around schools.
oing to cost a redesign fee $1,800. Can we put acrylic
Mr. Beckman,..
You talking about Lexan (sp?) hear said yeah
I Tom Runa
The answer is yes
Councilman Anear
That may be away out to eliminate breakage and still do it for less than $1,850.00.
Mr. Bussey
Is there any reason for or not to something, or wfiatever it is?
Mr. Becktnan
that changes in the plans muld have to be made in order to eliminate it. My solution was a little aver-simplified, I'm just going to leave it in and I'll negotiate a change order with the contractor.
Vice-Mayor
if we can do with a change order without going tthrough qenseive process, I tWk
we prepare to do it that way and I: think so long as the end result canes out.. . .
It was origially incorporated as a design feature. The architect indicated
I think that should be kgpt in mind , Mr. . . . .that commnt is justified and
Mary Casler
It scratches.
Mr. Bussey
what is the architects experience with kxan(sp? )
Tam Runa
It scratches and doesn't tend to have the longevim of glass. It will
yellow over tk.
Vice-Mayor
vandals is one that we know, we live with these days in our school system and elsewhere all the time. Okay, now those are the cormEnts that I had that had to do with the Value Engineera.
I think the cotmat that there is a possibility of it being broken by
If there are no further comerits....
councilman Lewis
This is sanething that has already been discussed, it is on page 12, once again getting back to operational control and anyone that has had the 8th and 9th grader all the way up to the senior realizes that this is a problem and #5, I know what the architect stated here, but I firmly agree with Mr. Berry on this as far as I for one would like Lyrm and perhaps the architect to do (somthing) through this again, because I thir;k it is very crucial. Like the
gentlenm mntioned, kids in shmrs I've seen them get into the boys' shower
and just slide all the way up and just barely miss injuring themselves, a nd they get out of hand at times. Now, if Lynn (Chase) and the Parks & Recreatim are satisfied as far as control element, that is fine, but I think it shad
be really stressed as far as operation and supervision in these areas, because what this gentlemn stated is very true,in any shawer/locker roam, they like to bellyslide and these things do occur.
I
Vice-Mayor
I would certainly agree with you on that k. Lewis. While we're here, we
just as well may achieve saw cons~fllsus here as to whether or not we wish in the case of the iterns discussed here, now, for the last hour give the staff any instructions which would be other than what they already have? There have been a ~~&er of items mentioned here which require some additid effort an the part of architects, I'm afraid. Now, the question, of course, is whether it is, cost wise, a practical thing to do at this point in the.
l
councilman Lewis
Skotty, I.. .once again I made a note here when Kamneyer Lynch was mtioneing about when the submitted their findings to our Value Connittee, they said that only 40% of the pool plans had been completed and this worries me a little bit because I am concerned that perhaps other ares might possibly have been investigated as well. I am just, you how the pool is the mst inportant thing
that we are building there and as we all how, it is going to last us a long time
and I was mndering, and I know that I'm not takmg about delaying the pool because to save mey, but I am concerned that we get the best we can for our money and I
was wondering if perhaps the gentlemn who worked on this team could also check out the rest of the plans that they have if the pool plans are campleted nuw
-17-
Tom Runa
Until we receive direction an the pool shape, you know. m, we know we are
not going to have, in essmse, a "U" shaped pool, but a rectangular shape and we are proceeding with that particular direction to complete the pool. I think you how, Once taking the Value Engineering Report into consideratian and once we have this basically finalized or what we think to be 90% , again, go through the process or have Value Ibgbw- (change). . . .
Well, no, with lowo completed cm the pool . .because that's 6 biggest ccmcern and I haw it is the cuncem of all of us and it . . . .
Mr. Becb
The purpose of Value Engineering is to kind of get the ideas aut rn the table. the plans are canplete and then run through them again, it is less of a value engineering process and more of a pla~ check process. It certainly can be done, the price we pay for it is one time and (2) the cost that would accrue to
I think a lot of ideas have been gotten out on the table, If we wait until
I think the basic ideas that have been brought forward by the value engineering.
They certainly are well documnted.
Wtty
I think staff is aware of them, the architect is mare of than.
I dd not recumend it.
That's what we want.
Mr. Bussey
understand it.
I I'm not sure the question is really understood, or at -least mybe I didn't
All right. Mr. Bussey, as I
Mr. Bussey
. . .I just want to make sure
Lewis
. . . .yeah, these gentlemen had only 40"/, of th 001 cqleted and the
vahatim attee went through and checked it out an e other 6Wo had t
__ ____ - - "$.2____1.:' - I __-II_ - - ----I__-- -18-
conpleted and my concern was to have it checked on that other 60%
k. Bsusey
Okay, I understand the questi on...
E. Beckrlan
Well. If we have questions in our minds concerning any elanent of the remajnder of the design elmt, be assured, you knm, we knm ho the experts are that we've used in this and I have not hesitated to use them for advice, but I honestly think it wdd, given the total impact of t?e project, at this
point in time that it wdd not be as productive.. .
MS
"hen our staff can handle the other 60-77 inmaking sure it is correct. Is
that what you are telling me?
Beckman
with the assuming that the value engineering recomnendatiatls are fairly cqlete and assuming that I can use the experts as we determine the need, yes, I think
we can handle it.
I'm saying that with the in-house review process that the architect has
That is all I wanted to know.
Comcilwcmm Casler
Nr. Bedunad, are you saying that because you feel that the pool itself is .
rather straight engineering and not much choice of design that we've settled an the design and that is why you feel that our staff can handle it?
m* Be-
mst of the rest is pretty I think the basic design questions have been arrived at and resolved. I think
technical engineering, yes.
LaJiS
workshop, itmntioned about a gutter and I'm fmiliar with gutters at all, but
according to this, this one element the gutter process had , was no longer in use. New designs had been created but this should n&t have been considered and accepted and this is my concern: Making sure that it is updated and not 20 or 30 or 15 years ago, but the things that shodd be going on now are incorporated in this pool ...............if staff assures m that these problems will not occur in the other 60"/, of thedesign, then that should be sufficient form.
-
One other cmt since you made that statement. On the value engineering
Mr. Be-
That suggestion was incorporated on the smmary sheets and, if I recall
correctly, I haven't found it myself, yet, but the suggestions of the value -19-
engineering team were accepted by the architect to be included.. .
Mr. Bussev
interrupted)
Mr. Be-, the point was if that was caught an the full design of 40%
I think
It had to do with whether that kind of
will there be other things in the remaining 60% of a shilar nature. you and or the architect should answer that question. nothing to do with the gutter design. issue can be raised un the from Kam~yer Lynch wants to answer that question and you may also want to respmd.
Wasn't.. .the question had
60% of the design and it may be that sawone
I think, frankly, since. . . I think this particular questian probably would be better addressed by the architect because he needs adequacy of their design.
I think basically the different types of gutters basically we are having again our consultant give us SO~TE recomdations as to water flow, how that is handled pipe size and here again you how my of these (change) . . .I think these have been discussed, we've COIIIE! about a simple decision regarding those and
believe me you' 11 get the utmst in technology of mer systems, adequate pipe
'sizing you how all within the constraints of dollars and cents. Again, when we get to all these particular suggestions, items brought forward by Value Engineea, I think are positive are good. got dclwn to the completion of our particular product, we are not at 90% ccmpletian. Many of the programs,my of the questions still addressed to staff still had not been uncovered or simply addressed. it has been done in a probably a nature that has been a little bit of aggrevatian to everybody and I think that many of these particular elements can be implemented still withjn the original budget and they can be checked both with the health department and with city plan check and get the project out to bid and finally get a project ongoing. at this particular point in time is only going to man another 2 mth delay and maybe value engineering would like to report on that.
And, again, I think really &en we
Unfoortunately, I think that has been done.
I'm only thinking that basically what the value engineering
Vice-Mayor
worth the price and that we don't have to suffer with mistakes for the life of that
pool. and it is unsatisfactory, I think there are going to be SOE unhappy people and we want to be sure to the best of our ability that we don't cannit that kind of error. Now, in trying toresolve the value engineering save for the one or two big issues,
is there anything that the Council muld like to do with sa of the items that Ere brought up here and discussed and I'm speaking specifically as far as
value engineering ccmnents
roam concept, its heating concept, the connmts made as to glass work, as to location of the manager's office , the (son&ning) of supervising, the younger people in the pool areas, does the Council wish to do anything at all to change
except to I certainly dm't wish to delay this to/ensure that we get a pool that is
I think if the people of this town were to get a pool and pay for it . . .
concrete area, the size of the (scaraething) turf --as you knaw, that has been "a, wised, so it has been eliminated--as to the locker
-20-
any of the existing understood items on this value engineering report. b. LaJis?
MS
stuff, with the exception, once again, I have stressed this idea of the cmtrol elemat. 1 guess I‘ve been in the business too long with kids, but I feel they
have to be watched and I think Iht Mr. Berry is absolutely correct on that and I said I hope staff and the architect will look at sorne kind of a solutim to this
&. Mayor, I’m going to leave it to the experts as far as all this further
---I _U_l-..._ - *w----
Is it Council agreemint that staff take a look at with the architect those two or three items that had to do with cmtrol.
direction for staff to take a look at that particular aspect of it. Will that be sufficient
..- - _,. +---
*-
S”cI
That is sufficient direction. We can do this, but if any significant changes are mde, I can pretty well guarantee you we will be back because we will have to get information with regards to the total cost impact because if we start switching aromd the interior of the building it is going to have a significant impact on the architectural, structural and mechanical. . not saying. the full cost impact ‘cause I’m not going to blindsi&t you on that me.
I’m .. I just saying it is going to be coming back to you so you lazaw
-
I
Councilman Casler
Perhaps we can save on the cost by reducing the concrete area around the pool.
Councilman hear
There may be some tradeoff s . 1
Mr. Vice-Mayor, I would like to where it was recomnendedwe consolidate
dissatisfied with the plan that they present us, we are going to have to pay additimalnrmey to have the plan to whatever we like it?
. . . . .some protection on that basis (Tam Runa) would be in the electrical equipmnt
here on page 12, here, one large area. Says Kamneyer Lynch disagreed, redesign, other words, if we are
Vice-Mayor
I So, it has in fact been designed as a covered installation?
m. Beckman
That is correct.
Vice-Mayor
.... but the architect is reconmending that we not cover it in order to
save $30, OOO?
But if we should decide to put the roof on they don't have to redesign
it, you've already done it that way and the roof costs $30,000 to put on.
We feel somewhere in that particular neighborhood including the (scxrething) the support system will be saxwhere in that particular . ..
Councilwornan Casler
I'm afraid I dan't understand if it has already been designed with the roof why do we pay an extra $30,000?
Basically, construction.. . .
Mr. Bussey
and I think we should get it clear is that as designed, it will cost you: $30,000 mre than as they recomrended it be designed without the roof. words, you could the roof, is
I don't thirik it is an extra $30,000. What the architect may be saying
In other
savings of approximtely $30,000 if you reMlved
Casler
There is m extra cost for design?
No fee or design costs. This is strictly-construction.
hear
There has to be something radically wrong here. I don't how too much
about a lot of things, but I knuw daun well you can build a mof for less than $25 a square foot. is an industrial building. got 4 walls around it, 1400 square foot . haywire here smplace. about samething I know a little smthing about doing industrial buildings and for $25 a square foot YOU can build an industrial building.
You can build the whole building for $25 a square foot. This
You've got a concrete slab floor in there, you've Gentlemen, you've got som figures
There is no ifs, ands and buts about it. We're talking
c_-- - NaJ, if you're going
-22-
Correct.
to put a building around some equipment, yau can do it a lot cheaper than $25 a square foot. Youknow it as well as I know it.
Vice-Mayor
I think the final costs figures are going to co~zlle out when the bids cane in but all we are talking about now is the architects' estimate and if the architect is wrong, I think we will find that out when the bids cane in.
don't need to worry about too precise a cost estimate because IE will find out about that soon enough. ranain as a covered installation which it is not. the Council as to whether or not we wish to elkhate that covered and save scxw mey whatever it is--whether it is $30,000 or less or mre or whatever it is
we can same mcmey.
Lewis
So we
The question is, staff is recumnending that it
Naw, therefore, it is up to
I would like to ask, who builds poosl. As far equipmnt that is left out
cheaper to build the roof, equipent suffer.
Sheldon
we have from the value engineering team a gentlemen
as (talking to Sheldon) you're experience with expozed to the elemnts, in the long run would it be replace the equipent or from your qerience wuld the
You have me at a disadvantage because you've never built one that has
been exposed to the elements.
Wrl Berry -.
Most of all our pools have covers on them, but there is a couple of things
The
you need to consider (1) direct sunli&t and it shouldn't be subjected to extraws in heat and cold. boilder, we have a boiler over at Gunther pool that is out in the open all the tie and it is a long-term maintenanceproblem. how if you know for sure, but the cheapest part of this whole buisiness is going
to building it and your long-termmaintenance You are going to pay for that pool 4 times aver in about 10 years and I think anyplace you can save on long term preventative maintenance and especially being this close to the ocean youhow would be well worth the mey.
needs to be covered and ...
IEWiS
Your chlorine, which you are, it should not be out in the
I think probably what you people, I don't
Your pumps need to be covered I think your heater
_c_
With that, I would recournend we cover.
?kEY
If there is a consensus here, we will 1
Now, lets take up the matter of the solar system. a brief study, not in depth by (someone) in which they recormEnded a heating systan for the pool waters only mmting to same 3300 square feet of unglazed (samething)
solar collectives on top of the shower house costing some $27,000. NaJ, elsewhere in this report, there was some disagreement.. .on this proposal suggested that: we are
I was lead to study, I understand
-23-
ought to put at least 50% of the pool area, apparently there is an association or relationship there between the pool area and the square footage of the solar collective panels. The reccn-rmendation was make it at least 50% and preferably 100% and once you do that and you throw in besides that heating of the dmmstic water for the shawers and getting involved in (somthbg) (change) with anosebleed
operation ...
I think that fairly well covers it.
different philisophid approaches in the larger report and in the 3-page letter which is offered as another point of view. has to deci&-i~~t&J&ey want to canstrain the me roots*%F the existing faciEtrFsTFl-
solar energy in lieu of alternate energy systems.,
The one hard recannendation I come away with after reports . . .my report is based strictly on analysis of the material you have and I took it apart and tried to see what recmdatian I would make is make
going to save it mst of the energy. (1) to canstrain panels on the roofs of the building and then to optimize the rate of return ofinvesmt. available solar energy. I indicate in my report and it is a very subjective determination that a maximum system would cost us in the range of $250,000.
The recomnendation mde of using 3300 square feet would cost us probably now about $30,000.
as efficient as the other , costs 6-1/2 tin-es as molch to install it. During the break I was having some discussio n with scm of the hers present-and there is perhaps divergat, not difergent, sm informtion levels that should
be brought out concerning the longevit of the two types. the type (1) which is copper piping glazed dd last in the range of 15 to 20 years, whereas the plastic would only last two or three yeras. kncrw. should be explored before Council des some policy determinations.
I think there were to basically
The basic issue that Council
It is The two approaches that were used was
The other one was to rnaxidze the use of the
The use of the two types of solar panels (1) is 2-1/2 times
It was suggested that
I don’t I’m not a solar expert, I’m far fran it. But I think that perhaps
In the process of elimination, in order to redwe om problem to soITEthing ,?
I we can handle, I would suggest that a 1/4 million dollar installatim is sdere
beyond our reach. Do I hear any disagreemmt on that? ,i’
**#. -c- --- -Ji” -* I L._ * ~-~~ ,, “ c
On the other deal, they say a realistic price for an effective solar system to heat the swimniq pool is $93,000. W, we have one that says it is going to cost us 1/4 million and we have one that is going to cost us $93,000, There is @te a range ....
skotty
architect thrws in to help cOnfllSe us. ... and there is a range also from 68,000 to 128,000 dollars
As a point of information, that did cunfuse a lot of people
that the
and the basic
-24-
difference between those two ee~eep-md- cost estlmates is one 2,000 square
feet of panel and one is 4,000 square feet of panel. It is just that simple.
Vice-Mayor
Well, let me ask this. Will the suggestion of the installer of an installation amunting to som $30,000 heat the of the time. pool all year long most
Mr. Bechan
I muld think not. That kind of question, frankly, dd better be addressed to these gentlemm here. They knm that business.
It would have to be used in &ination with the boiler.
Do we haVe:!anybdy?
You haw in the conferences I've been to in the last 3 to 4 years, there
are probably 3,000 people go to conference and 2,999 are solar experts and solar salemen. on the bandwagon and it just makes your head spin on a different kinds of systems there are. At Grossmrnt, we are operating tvm pools with two different systems
and we are going to add another pool with a different kind of system. pool that we added is a 3,000 square foot surface area which is half the size "of the pool that you are building and I'm sorry, 6,000 square feet. square feet of panel and those panels are copper and they were built by the district, they are very, very simple. There is nothing carplac about solar heating and what I would suggest that you do is design your pool so that you can always plug into and maybe at a later date, if you want to do your own or you're tumed m to a really good system then do it. Just so you have the alternative of doing it, but that system we put in at that particular pool is copper. We have 100 panels that are 4 x 8 and it costs us $100 a panel, so it was somewhere 10,000 to $U,OOO counting labor to make our panels and that particular pool has been in operatian for a year and as far as the solar heating goes. conjunction with a heater, our gas bill drops imnensely. gas cansunption. During the surnertime, the heat got up so high. 88degrees and we had to turn off the solar heater totally and we leave it off maybe for 4 or 5 days and then turn it back m. the winter time, since it is a 12 mth operation as long as we use the pool cover, our consmpticm was 75% less than what it had been the year before (change) it was put in by a comercia1 cunpany and I suppose they gave us a break because they wanted the experience factor and I think it was something like $6.00 a square foot and again, we have about 3,000 square feet of surface area that we are using. you are talking about $36,000 anyway.
What I'm saying or what I'm trying to tell you is you have to be cautious of solar heating and you need to get a team together and you need to go around to different facilities that are using than and find out howmuch they are really sa- and haJ much it costs and hm long they are going to last, But I dcm't believe that you have to go out and get a $225,000 system to work.
It is one of those kinds of things nm that everyone is jmping
I
So we have 3,000
Whenwe use it in I would say 3/4 of our It got up to
So it definitely was effective during
So
Mr. Sheldon
I would second Mr. Berry's camoent in that a $250,000 system is not what
-25 -
YOU really desire and that would really provide all of your water heating needs, your showers and everything and that is not really where your cost effectiveness is. Qg-elymake the pwisision whether or not you put solar in. You spend a small mount of mey, relativery ' spe-g to P- alternate (sm&hing) for the cost of solar systems.
that point, you could decide when your bids com in whether or not you can afford it. I really feel that you can have a system that will take care of all your needs under $100,000. business and they told me that. You really have to decide what type of solar system youwant. Do you just install tm large plastic systems.
a dirty word in the solar industry. look at -- how long is it going to last. is going to last you 10 years, 20 years. really should investigate thembecause cost of the energy is not going to be increasing at 6% a year, it is going to be 15, 20% a year.
expensive to heat this pool and unless you keep that pool at the proper temperature, you are not going to really have the use that you want without a lot of mn ey. the operator asked us haw they could control the heat.
that solar systan acting like a th-stat so they can maintain that water temperature at whatever degrees. or they have to run it at night to cool down the water. want or what you tell your architects to put into your plans.
a provision so you can have it.
Really, you should be looking at your pool.
At
There are people who have looked at your pool are in the
Plastic is Because it is so cheap,. .but again you have to
Is it going to last you five years, it You have sa options. I think you
It could really get
The two systems we've put in , our problem that we've had is They really want to have
We've told them they just have to shut it off
But it is all what you But at least make
skotty
-. Well that makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you. t
May I add just one word to solar heating. I pranised to shut up, but . . .you are basically right in that you mndered why so large, the very simple problem, you have the heat loss of the swimrring pool is from the square foot of surface is a function of the square foot of &ace so the heat that younust add in is a function of the square foot of surface that you had. good green earth most of the tim green 95,000 btu per square foot per hour the panels. percent efficient.
of what you are going to spend. $27,000 is I hate to say it, it isn't going to heat anything of that size and it is merely a matter of huwh you spend and the function thatyou do it. rest of the costs that get bandied aromd is purely a function after the square footage of whther you go with the cheap system that lasts x number of years a mre qensive systan that lasts y n&er of years.
we have to make it right off. We ca"t put a system in that wm't pay back either
we figure an inflated costs, etc. and we cannot make in a length of time before
it wears out. Whetherit is a 20 year system or a 4 year system. just, we are ready for solar heating, but solar heating is not ready for us in the
God puts on this
just about all of them regardless of what panel you have are 80 or 90 It takes no genius to figure out what you need it is a matter
The guy who says you can heat that pool for
The
From an engineering standpoint,
And wer are
.c3&mhg pool industry.
-26-
Vice--
solar heating,
SlOn
design around the solar system znrd I'm afraid that may be a little extreme, but
nonethless I can see the point. added on, like an unnecessary appendix usually corns out looking like sorething
unnecessary.. . (change)
It is sometin~s mre difficult to put smthing
If we accmdate 50% of the pool surface, we are talking about 6,000
square feet, that means we would have to put 2,000 feet elsewhere.
The question is &ere can we put it other than the parking lot?
caslex
Well, we have the maintenance building which is covered now that is 1200 square feet.
Be- Another was mounting them on-top of some of the walls as opposed to putting then out in the parking lot, but that is the kind of feedback that we want to get frm you now. You may say Yuck.
That was me of the considerations.
I believe that anybody looking at a solar heater cm a roof, any sensible I don't thing it person is going to say marvelous, they put in solar heating. is going to be objectionable at all.
Yet, I don't how.
An-
We designed that with a soft tooth roof to (do samething) we can get mre than 6,000, we can get mre than 4,000 square foot of panels on a 4,000 square foot roof.
skotty
Hm about that, engineering.
Bedunan
That would irrvovle a basic change in the design ofthe roof itself.
be made, but %e it is a basic design change of the existing facility
It is designed now to be a space frame with built up (sanething) an top. That charge
-27-
I think that the point was stated that this is sonrzthing we have to WDrk In my mind it is whether we out as far as haw they would resolve the problem.
want to try to go 50% with the boiler or do as mu& as we possibly can like me
of th4ese gentlemen said. would be my goal.
We put up there maybe 60, 70 maybe 20% and to me that
skattV
Well, however, I think they muld need frm us som guidance as to whether or not we are willing to alluw solar panel installatian off the buildings.
Correct.
skotty
Other wise, they don’t have enough facts with which to procegd. How does Covncil feel about putting it other than on the building?
I have no problan with it although I would certainly say let’s get all we
,’ can on the roof of the building and design that with the idea of efficiency of ’ the solar system rather than the aesthetics of the building. I feel like Mary. Solar systan is a solarsysmtem and it is going to look like a solar system and / that is good enough for me.
,
1
It doesn’t ha. To look like sat- elbe.
\ ‘-_ skotty
Do you feel so strongly, would you use the north parking lot and rmmiber it is on the optianal bid part of the process.
Mr. prvs sey
would be m room for parking. not eliminate the parking. high school puts in their art center you’re going to have parking lot, you are not going to be able to eliminate that parking lot.
I’m not sure the use of the north parking lot whether that meant there
I think you just mant that general area. It would If it did, I would have a real caution because if the
Beckman
’Ihat was part of the reason I said $250,000 because I assune we have to put it up on a structure that we could still use parking underneath.
I think it should be within the fenced in area.
-28-
Sheldon
I was just going to canment that possibly this terraced area that you
were looking at inside your enclosed area already could be used for your solar system and all you mdd have to do for vandalism is put up a chain link fence and wind screening and you would never even see it.
might accomplish several different things.
You know, it
There is an idea there. We are agreed that we don't want to use the I'm afrain that parking lot and I would not be in favwr that parking lot, Cdty arts center ....
Anear
ke we obligated to provide the parking lot for the cdty art centers, m?
skotty
No, no
Anear
That's what we're saying ...
No, no that is not what we're saying. You did say we were going to put in I'm not a north parking lot in with the pool We did say that.
saying it is going to be for the cdty art center, but
I think we did.
Bussey
the cc5rnunim art center when it isn/t.. . . I dm't think we should kid ourselves. Our parking is going to be used for
The cdty art center all of sudden they have a lot of money, we dun/t/
skotty
Do you have enough from the Council nuw as far as the solar system is concerned.
One thing I want to make sure, clear in my mind. direction and we are to include this as an optimal bid item in the contract.
way you can choose when you see what the cost is going to be. assumption?
I understand the general
Is that a correct
That
Bussey
@' &estadhg is that we were going to bring back a report. I don't Jsmw -29.
that we've mde a decision yet to include it as an optid item or not.
thmk vc real7.y have to sit dawn and talk to the architect.
I .
bsier
but that was removed frm the design, wasn' t it. So it is no longer a terraced area, but will you give us an idea of whether it is lecs expensive to put it on the outside ....
I have one more question. Now, Mr. Shek, both of the terraced areas,
IkWiS
away, we are going with the idea that they will be built so it can be plugged in at a later date, I mea13 that it is just automatically assumed, right.
-
Well we are going with the concept of whether we actually put it in right
Yes. The point was the architect said even if you do that in the design have sane idea of what you are going to accamplish are going to work out with the architect.
If we are going to put it on the roof, obviously (change). . .
skotty
Okay, then. We are going to expect sarnething from staff on this and
we have given you enough information, I hope and if it is not, speak up m.
Final Item
Has any manber of the Council had any second thoughts about the shape of the
pool. We approved a list of optional items . Was there a third , . . .
Mr. BeckInan
It was change of shape of the pool, a list of optional item and solar and
you related solar to here.
Nm, is everybody here satisifedwith the decision we did last time, because if we didn't we would have to reconsider and put it up to a new vote because that was an item that we passed . . .
If you recall, the only reason was that it was a 32 vote was because I was ccmecziiec! abaut sane of the other factors and the Mayor j1x-x had to go along with TIE out 01 grrem~ity, but I'm wlling, I thin?: the j+aformation brought out it would be a mmimous vote xight nm.
skotty
In that case, now I will declare this agenda item campleted, if there are no further ccmrrents, suggestions -JY motions. nn
MS
me oth& item, Mr. Mayor. We've eliminated the north .parking area, I mean it is optional. pool camplex. fence through there so that , I'm assuring this will occur, right, security between the school property and the school property. where you walk right straight through the facility, right.
Mr. Becl.unan
The security element: between that of the football field and I'm assming that we are ham security as far as a chain link Sanre type of It is not just
I knm the answer on the tennis court area, I know the answer an the pool. Did we have, I think there was a berm there, I don't recall on the parking lot. I don't recall a fence.
There is security between the parking area and the pool, but not between the parking lot and the school property.
But as far as the pool facility itself, there is a security right.
Yes, there is solid block wall on the west, north and east sides &ich is ccaribination security and sound controls, as required by the EIR and there will be ....
LRwiS
I?& the tennis courts, going north to the pool facility.. . .
Beckman
...THERE WILL be a fence there. The idea there is to have so that parents or guardians going into the parking lot can see into the pool and see their kids and so forth and the noise abatemat in that direction is not as an important an issue.
Okday. The other thing. If we should go along with the parking lot, are we still just going to have the berm there as far as separation between the school facility and the City, we are? okay. One other thing, I asked the Athletic Director (Hines) to get sm feedback frm him and I muld like to hear his carmElit abut the school and the city and perhaps he my have same conments for us on this.
Hines
I do hav e a few because at the present time there are existing barriers between bnroe Street and access to the football field and (smthhg) facility. And it is necessaiy that after this pool is built that those saw barriers or
soxwthing be provided.
or we have supervision problems. And by taking aut the one tennis court, there
Otherwise, you have free flm exit during football gams,
-31-
will be no barrier betteen the tennis court that is left and the pool site and there will be no barrier between the pool site to (something) so there would be a free
flow of people back and forth from the football field to the pool site. *
And you do charge rates to get into the football games.
Bussey
. Well, we can certainly go over it with the q'erintmdent. the design and the school reviewed the entire design and approved it. to review that again to see if there is a problem. the school district, itself is planning to supply that.
Eines
They did review
Be happy If there is, it my be that
It was my understanding that at scm point this was discussed and during those discussions, there was the problem with the existing visitor sites ............. . . . . . . . . .
-"
-**
J There has been that general discussicm and the feedback we got frm the \ school district was that they wanted control access from the parking lot area
, pool area into the football field so-that they could get people into the vistor \ side frm that parking lot and then on the southside it would be controlled access \ (change). . .the specifics of whether we are leaving the existing fence or relocating
it, .I dan't recall.
/' /
i Mr. Manager, will you look into that and see, if. .. .. .. . .
-32-
THELMA I. HAYES
580 LAGUNA DRIVE
POST OFFICE BOX 1366
CARLSBAD. CALIFORNIA 92008 -
TELEPHONE (714) 434-1053 '
I
,,' .-
To:
Now that solar heating, one of my suggestions made first
active consideration, 1 would like to again submit for
reconsideration the ideas made then in the proposal.
The Members of the City Council of Carlsbad
A,. in November, 1976 and again in July, 1978, is receiving
c
To: Those Interested in Our Community Swimming Fool ,
From: Thelma I. Hayes
f
In'Vovember 1976 I sent to many of you some ideas for
your consideration. One of them I would like to suggest
again and expand it.
It had to do with the installation of a solar heating system, involvinq both the Dhysics and industrial arts students*in its construction. Vow, with the need to further curtail costs, I think the aid of interested, will.ing citizens and students coul-d be so9qh-b and used in many aspects of the entire project. Then, we could truly have a community swimminq pool and, hopefully, at a cost we could afford.
t
Another of ny original suggestions., to consider a covered pool, still has validity, but wou1.d cost more. Iia:,rever, the cost Der user wonld be less, because so many more
would use the pool ~. In adrlit;ion, the daj.iy rnairltenance costs trould be less. 1.1~ exnerience is I.~,at sich nools
hava allowed the yyo:iatq ani1 thc old to iise the noO7.9frOrn ear*ly morning until late XI; niqht , ycnr round, I%gardless of the weather. .
1 would aDDrec fate receivi.no, your evaluai.ion 01' XY thoughts.
* The liability Insurance requirements and cooperative arrangements wl th unions could be worl:&i out, possibly following the example of the Oceanside high school students'
In Sacramento, descriIJed In the attached article, Seems to have overcome any problems and points out the benefits of such an endeavor.
. . construction of a house each yenr. .The Solar 'A'echniclnn Program
. .
2: PILOT PROGRAM ;; .*I .. .*.* .*.e .. c..
By ROBERT P. 5iL)EH
CWNl *ul srr+ia :;
graduate of Sacramento State University, and au Idealist. He would rather work in a :: field that 4tonserves energy than IJI or(re that Q spenb It." y
Ron Eng k a little older. He's 28 and a $
graduate In biologkal XI~SCTS from Sacra- R mento State who has worked as a surveyor's 5: aslsdant and for tho state Department of 2 Agriculture. Me sees solar energy as a &row- :: $ hg new fleld. .. "All energy, after all," hs satd. "comes from the sun." Diana Fett 19 a 1Qyear-oid Ngh~school I
grnduate wtn, likes to worE wtth bef hands. she's Ytudjjing t~ become caa apprentice car- penter. AU of them an? students It1 a unklw? new
SACRAMENTO - Andy CazZatO is 23, a 1:
4
"In the fht year of the program, we
expect to retrofit 42 units of apartments and several houses complete wlth molar hot water systems," said Joann Trujillo, project dim- tor of the Office of Appropriate Technology. This offire is a new one established by the state architrct, Sim van der Ryn, to seck alternative ways of rncrgy consclrvatjon, par- ticularly in regard to public buildings. "The advantages of the program are two- fo!d," Trujillo said. "We are training cornpe- tenl. versatik solar technlcians and at the samr time using their skills to make .some of lhi. stale-ownrd housing niuch more energy- efficient. '' The program al,w will point the way, she said, for privatc industry. The program is financed through a grant from the Comprchrnsive Employn~ent Train- ing Act, with matchlng funds from the De- partment of Gericml Services. Consulting and other support services are provided by the state archltect and the Office of Appropriate TechnoloRy. "We want to teach men and women a marketable skill that enhances the environ- ment. In creatlng thjs skfll, we must also develop a job market for solar technicians in the constnlctlon trades," Trujiilo said.."As a by-product, we hope to demonstrate the feasi- bWty of uslng renewable energy rewums for everyday household needs," TIie program is designed so that clasmom or shop trainlng Is @nforced by extensive on- thefob training.
Jud such lralnhg was under way at a 75- year-old former home near the state crlpltol, now used as a houseplant shop by the Scrcra-
nli'iiit) Menhi Health Atrmclatlon 8s a wha-
tllllcim prtijca for the vw.iliamjJy 111s.
abld Th. elght solar techni!*!rtn tralneeil wpre
mi*i riilltg OVt't' uwt roElfiq irtxt.dlatJon ,in e!~;t,~liol-square~m? boll of ;&,. 'I .~;;phg, ti*t:ii hlw ir!mrkts and a flk~;i;~,~.:i WVCT. 'k heat crillector was 40 sfpxrt? fcrt In slze arid had a M-gallon !;tmt.v capat:iiy,
stlffltht to 1111 60 to To pt;t* wni of Lhta t;\jt walrr rW fw a borne or :;i~t ~LS~IESY.
'"I'fti!, Ii nboul optlmuni," eqlalned Dave Rozcli of the ofilce of the mk nrcljLect.
-.
..