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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1978-02-16; Parks & Recreation Commission; MinutesMINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : lilME OF MEETING t : ,CE OF MEETING: CIT' OF 'CARLSS'D PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING IMMIS SIGNERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p'.m. City Council Chambers The special meeting of the Parks and Recreation Com-, mission was called to order by Chairman Tarango at 7:38 p.m. in the Council Chambers. ROLL CALL: Parks and Recreation Commission: Raul Tarango Betty Woilrich Laurie Nelson-Boone Don Egermayer Jim Kinghorn Joe. DeDiminicantanio Carlsbad Unified School District Board Mary Scherr John Mamaux W. Allen Kelly , Glen Whitener Swimming Pool Committee ~"ail DeWeese judy Newell Jean French City Staff Ed Johnson, Parks and Recreation Director Ron Beckman, Public Works Administrator Kammeyer Lynch and Partners Larry Lynch Bill Warkentin Mr. Johnson said, "In case you haven't had the oppor- tunity to see or talk to me, I am Ed Johnson, Parks and Recreation Director. Also from Cit.y staff is Mr. Ron Beckman, Public Works Administrator who will identify the ground work which we are at this particu- lar time. Also with us is the architect and pool com- mittee people who are very important to this project. Also present is the Carlsbad Unified School District Board. This is something we have all looked forward to and worked rather hard for. « Kammeyer Lynch are the principals of this project. I would like to ask you to speak a little louder -than normal because we are not on mikes, so we can picl ^ou up on the recorders. Staff is taking information. Mr. Beckman will inform you on other matter and for- malities. I would like to at this time introduce to you Mr. Beckman. Ron, would you please instruct the people on some of the methodology. " Mr. Beckman said, "Thank you Ed. I will first run over an outline of what we propose to deal with to- night. I want to address you a little bit on the administrative process we are", using to fry to bring th pool to reality, the architectural process we went through, staff input. The architect will make his presentation and staff will follow with-some comments and we will open up for some questions and answers. MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : "~ \CE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLS3VD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING iMMIS SIGNERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers Now, when we got into this project we tried to plot out the hurdles we would have to clear to get approval or feedback or review by all the commissions, boards, agencies, and so forth that had any input and a mov- ing hand in creating this project and bringing it- to where it is today. The process I am using at the ad- ministrative level is to try to facilitate the project and get it into a construction phase as soon as pos- sible, i's a process that is similar to what is used in an environmental report. By that I mean the architect has been retained to do an analysis of demands so we know what the anticipated use of the pool facility will be facing with regards to community needs and school needs. We will use this information to create general design criteria regarding pool size, parking needs, locker room sizes and so forth. This is basically the report he will be giving you tonight in a more classical form. The architect would normally be work- ing with staff'on this presentation, staff would give feedback from the agency's point of view, the archi- tect would go back and make whatever revisions that were necessary and come back with some nice drawings, nake presentations to the review agency. The review agency might make some comments and discussion and might go back and make some revisions again. Finally it ends up in the Council's lap and they make the decision of whether or not they are going to go. We try to compress this process I outlined so that we will take the architect's presentation to that will be added the input staff would normally feedback to the architect, you will notice that when we get into it. That package is basically what will be brought before the Council. To that will be added comments and suggestions th.at are braugJit up at this joint meet- ing today, so that the Council will have full spectrum discussion and input of what this project is. From that they will make a decision on the design concept. With that brief outline of the process, I think the best thing to do is to let the architect start his presentation. When the architect is through, staff will follow through with what has been their input into the schematic and then we will open it up for questions. - . Now, while we want and value specific comments, please remember this is a concept, it is not a detailed de- sign and is not intended to address every detailed problem. It is to address major concepts. We do want detailed comments so the architect can address all the real needs we have in his preparation of design speci- fications. He has some advantage of discussion with Dr. Deason on some of the needs the high school will have. So with that in mind, let's get on with the architectural presentation. Bill Warkentin from Kammeyer Lynch will make the presentation." Mr. Warkentin: "Thank you. My name is Bill Warkentin and I'm with the firm Kammeyer Lynch and Partners. One of the partners, Larry Lynch, is here as well. It's my pleasure to be here tonight to speak with you. This is the first time we have had an opportunity to deal with any of the citizens who are concerned with the design, quality and the use of the pool complex once it gets built. What I would like to do is keep my comments as brief as possible and outline to you MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : \CE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLS3'D PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING MMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers the process we have gone through thus far to arrive to this point and explain if I can, some of the data we used to. get to this point and some of the research and so forth and have this thing opened up'for questions. Really, what we would like to do is get-your comments and see how you feel about this concept we have come, up with. Our approach has been typically to take a job like this and do a certain amount of research on it before we begin to do any kind of a design. We have done that. We have examined the census data taken from the 1975 Special Census to find out the makeup in terms of house holds and population characteristics of the community and -applied the experience we have gained in the design of other pool complexes that we have been asso- ciated with. We take that information and develop it into an architectural or development program. We follow that up with the development of a number of con- cepts and tonight you have in front of you a series of 8%xll paper and on them on page 1 are; the four pages "^here are the four pages we have colored on the board; ,<ie simply did 8%xll reductions of those four sheets. Let me begin by getting into the actual process by explaining how we interpret the si.te analysis. You will see on page 1 in front of you and up here it's numbered 1, the site analysis. It is an opportunity for us, we came down to look" at the site, drove around it, tried to get some kind of a feel for the community in a very personal sense. We don't have the same feel for it that you obviously have, we try to get a sense of the community, what kind of housing there was around it, what densities were and how far people had to go, for instance, circulation, what kind of street patterns and circulation system they had to get to the site and so forth. Also it was or is part of and current adjacent to the high school, that has some serious impacts or serious constraints and opportuni- ties as to how we would handle the site. It is adja- cent to Monroe Avenue which is the major frontage off the Chestnut Street access and also has a very sma-11 portion on a panhandle in the upper right hand corner that fronts onto Basswoo.d. " The basic analysis that we have come with .is that the site itself, a flat, unadorned site at the moment and las no serious constraints that is, there are many things that could be put on that site, many designs, a wide variety of possibilities. There are no dominate constraints that the site seems to hold in terms of the development of the pool complex. On page 2, which is the opportunities and constraints sheet, we have identified, opportunities and constraints Opportunities being those that have to do in many cases with entries, that is how you -gain access to the site and what the impact of that entry is. We have identi- fied those on the map up here, you will see those as a red arrow with a dot. There are five -of them. We have an opportunity to gain access from the school site that is also in some regards a constraint. We .iave to deal with the issue of getting school children on the site in a safe manner without forcing them to go around or through the public areas. We have a con- straint in the panhandle, I call it a panhandle simply for lack of a better term. Simply it has a street MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : \CE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers 'MMISSIONERS access which ought to be taken advantage of but it's a very narrow strip suitable for almost nothing else but parking. If you use it for parking,, then you have a buffer opportunity or buffer requirement between park- ing requirement between parking area and the adjacent single family development here on the corner along Basswood. One of the opportunities we want to identify is the fact Gayle Avenue terminates at Monroe in a T inter-; section and we have seen an opportunity there to make it an entrance into the pool complex itself. What initial constraint is illustrated on this map with the black line with the light purple outline around it. Which is simply to say that the edge of the pool com- plex is a critical design component of the problem and has to be dealt with very carefully in terms of noise, in terms of wha,t it looks like and in terms of its relationship to the community as a whole. From the site analysis and opportunities and constraint we go into the analysis of the use program. I think you, at this stage of the game, are acquainted with the uses of the pool. The two major uses are the school children and the Parks and Recreation Department or public use of the pool as administered by the Parks and Recreation Department and the school use of the pool as handled by the school. We have identified another potential use which is some kind of organized group use of the pool which will be some kind of a swimming team, a diving team, water ballet, something of that nature which is not related to either of the institutional types of uses. There are obviously a variety of sport uses and we have looked into those and requirement for access of service vehicles, the requirements for showers and sanitary facilities and all the things that go along with that. There.are also requirements for educational facilities, perhaps class rooms, administrative rooms for people who are going to manage the complex. There is some potential for separate non-related uses at some point in the future. We have the tennis courts on sheet 2. The tennis courts are in the upper left corner of the site Two of those are to remain and they are a separate non-related use. They are not to be part of the pool complex per se. Although there will be direct access between the two and yet they are part of the overall design problem. There may very well be in the future some uses, some potential for expansion exists and something that has to be considered in the layout of the site. And I think one of the things we have dealt with very early on was after we got to the point we. had a site analysis, we had basic understanding of what the site had to offer, and knew basically what the uses were, we had to generate a series of goals, project objectives, design objectives for the project and that's something in our firm that is the key to the solution of any design that we would propose. We have done that and we have reviewed them with staff and we have a list of 13 project goals and a list of specific performance criteria which elaborate on each goal and this is what we used as the nucleus, key to our design solution, the thing to generate those and conversely when we finished with that particular phase we use those criteria to evaluate how well we did. It is a part of our process that we feel strongly about and is extraordinarily beneficial. MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TJME OF MEETING : \CE OF MEETING: •GIT/ OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING >MMIS SIGNERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers Once we have developed the project goals, the next thing is to take the use program, the site itself and develop the facility program. By that I mean, to determine how large the facility will be, whe.re it wants to go, how many square feet will be allocated to the various uses and the various buildings and activities and so forth. Our approach to that kind of a process to take both knowledge gained from the observation of the use of existing pools, national standards from Parks and Recreation Commissions and agencies around the United States as well as our own experience, as well as the recommendations of the pool study committee and a study that our firm did about a year ago in evaluating this particular site in terms of feasibility. We took that information, looked at the demographics of the community, how many people there were, what is the population going to be served, took that information and developed a program that we' used to create .concepts, Land Use Concepts 1 and 2. Basically, I would like to run down a couple of impor- tant statistics in that regard. The first one deals with our assumptions of what the design population is. In event, what we have done is to use a 30,000 popula- tion as a base figure. Now that was done for several reasons, that is the anticipated current population, it also approximates the population of the portion of the city that the high school is currently in, that •will by 1955 that build out under the current zoning will be completed by that time. That's approximately 1/4 of the city that the pool would reside in and it was indicated to us that one of the things we should consider is the possibility of there being more than one pool complex at some time in the future. Now this pool complex will serve as an total city resource for recreational and educational purposes and some time in the future it may be but one component in larger master plan pool complex. That is the population we used. You extrapolate from that population and work down and calculate how many people will be in the pool at one time on any one day, how many in the water, how many on the deck and so forth and those figures based on standard calculations then develop how many rest- rooms you have to have, how large the pool building will be, how large pool will be, how much deck space you will need,, how many.carS you will have to-park, what landscaping you will have. With that- information, at this stage of the game, it is nothing more than statistics, we use them to generate the areas you see on the maps in front of you on the sheets and I think from that point having had this information, back- ground, knowledge of the site, discussion of the staff, we began to go about developing the two concepts. In reference to that, Concept 2 is an extrapolation of reduced scope, if you will, of Concept 1. Simply smaller in scale. So I don't think I need to go through Concept 2 in total except to point out those areas where perhaps it is fitting. Let's take a look at Concept 1. Our approach was to locate the pool-in such a way that it would be on a north-south axis so for competitive uses to minimize glare problems for competitive, swimmers. Because of that .and the configuration of the site, that puts the pool on a slight kilt with regard to the rest of the site. That opened the possibility of some landscaping areas both inside and outside of the pool area that would compliment the deck area and a soft scape deck. MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : \CE OF MEETING: CITX/ OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING 'MMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers We located the building-on the street corner here, the yellow area, on the street corner side of the pool com- plex at,the corner of Gayle and Monroe. .Our purpose of doing that was two fold. Number one was to allow the building to act as a buffer, noise wise, for the noise generated in the pool area, to buffer between the apartments across the street and the single family homes to .the northwest and it also acts as a major com- .munity identification, that is to say as a major com- munity resource for the City of Carlsbad. It gave us the opportunity to put the building in a location that it could make a visual statement about the community's willingness to a major resource at that point. We split parking into two parts. The panhandle with a large existing section next to the single family deve- lopmen, replacing the parking, for the simple reason that the panhandle has access to Basswood and the ability to take.access there and relieve congestion off Monroe seems to be a very viable opportunity that we did not want to pass up. There is some additional parking on the southern side or to the left of the pool ~irea, parking for about 60 cars which will be just east ,f the tennis courts. We felt that probably 90% of the use of the pool complex including day time summer use, the major parking lot for 200 cars would be adequate 90% of the time. There might be that ocassiorial very hot day or Labor Day or 4th of July weekend when .some auxiliary parking would really pay off. Our tho'ught was rather than connecting the two parking lots and forcing the pool and deck area into an elongated con- figuration, we would simply break the -two and assume that for that 10% of the time and the few people who would have to park there would simply" walk around in front and that was an acceptable trade off. The tennis courts are to remai-n and be refurbished. -That may be phased, however, that has not been resolved. The area that is light purple up there in the upper right hand corner that says bike parking, we thought there would be the necessity of parking close to 170 bikes on a very hot summer afternoon at a peak period. Our demo- graphic study indicated the area immediately surround- ing the pool complex, 80% of the .dwellings are occupied by -established families and families with children. 90% of the area is singl.e .falnily homes, less than 10% are apartment dwellers. That isn't so in other parts of the city, particularly the west side of. the city and even further west of the railroad tracks. But immedi- itely around it wil-l be where most of the children will be bicycling from, strong family area, hence 160 stalls for bicycles to park in. The pedestrain access to the site has been kept to the T intersection where Gayle terminates into Monroe. There are opportunities for some visual identification signs and the building itself and then past the build- ing to a point where access can be controlled because it must be both legally and functionally. You'll want to control that access from a safety stand point. the building acts as, might even be split, you might walk through the building as opposed to next to it, con- ceptionally it could happen a number of ways. The is the access is controlled. That highlights features of Concept 1. MINUTES OF: CIT' OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING DATE OF MEETING : February 16, 1978 TIME OF MEETING : 7:30 p.m. " \CE OF MEETING: City Council Chambers ISSIONERS Concept 2 differs in that it simply was an exercise to reduce the total size of the improved area in a effort to reduce the total improvement cost. What our effort resolved in is we reduced the size of the building and kept the parking the same, added some more in fact for bikes, reduced the overall size of the parking. We kept the 200 cars in the main'area and panhandle, eliminated entirely the left hand side of the facility and eliminated the tennis courts, the refurbishing the tennis courts as a cost factor. What we came up with after all of this was a cost estimate. The bottom line on it was our estimated construction cost on Concept 1 was in excess of $1,200,000 and the allocated funds currently run at approximately $700,000. Staff asked us to examine what would be the possibilities or what opportunities were there to reduce the cost and not eliminate or in a series of step progressions, how could we reduce, the improvements and still maintain all of the service requirements. So that was our next task We established three other concepts I don't have any thing to hand out on that at the moment but I can ex- plain it very briefly and that is simply our approach ;as to identify the major cost items in the constructio contract, those are the building and the pool. Beyond any doubt, those items are 90 or 80 per cent of the con tract. So if you reduce cost in the building or the pool, that's the.place to reduce cost. So what we did was.simply reduce the size of the pool. The first pool which is about-a 12,000 sq. ft., Z . shaped that the pool committee came up with. The second pool was a 50 meter pool, 60 ft. wide and no Z at all just a straight.rectangular pool. The third alternative ended up about 9500 ft. Then we went to an alternative that was 7400 ft and 5600 ft. Each pool smaller, reducing cost. That also reduces the occupant level. You can't have as many people in small pool as in a larger one, so the improvements to the building itself dropped down as well. The net result of that was to offer staff a variety of bottom line cost figures. Some were below budget all the way up to about $1,200,000." Mr. Mamaux: dimensions?" 'Would you ,repe"at the- square footage and Mr. Warkentin: "The pool as per the facilities pro- gram that is the one that the pool study committee pro- vided for was right around 11 ,to 12,000 sq. ft. We took an alternative that was about 9500 sq. ft., another alternative that was about 7400 ft. and another one that was 5600 ft. In effect, each time it is re- ducing the size of the pool from a 50 meter Z pool to a 50 meter straight to a 25 yd. Z pool to a straight 25 yd. pool. That's what that amounts to." Mrs. Scherr: straight?" "The first is Z and the second one is Mr. Warkentin: "Yes. The third one. was a 25 yd. Z pool which allowed for a shallow end and a diving end but only 25 yds. long rather than 50 meters and the third one was a square 50 yds. I'm sorry the fourth one. MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : r"~ME OF MEETING : x -iCE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING 'MMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers Once we arrived at that point, we presented this in- formation to staff and they in turn reviewed all that information. They came up with an .alternative of their own which is kind of a staff response to our Concept 1. Mr. Becicman can address himself to that and effectively that is where we are at this point. We•have come up with a number of concepts, reflected what those con-, cepts mean in terms of construction dollars and are now seeking your input and your reactions to our thinking of how the pool complex should be designed. Ron would you like to take over on the alternative now." Mr. Beckman: "The criteria that staff used in their analysis was basically to see what we could try to do to achieve the maximum potential function', as -Bill said, serving an area of 30,000 people or the City's build out in 1995 so basically the project approach we took was you can add to a building but you can't add on to a pooJ . So we took that bias maximizing the pool and phasing the other facilities. We analyzed available funds, the figure Bill mentioned was the -^igure in our contractural arrangment, $700,000, that's hy he was working against that. The actual amount available in the budget is $846,000 which is available money that the city has set aside over the last several budgets. We also did a little bird-dogging to see the possibilities of getting funds from other areas, so we had a concept that we were working against. We also tried to address some functional needs that the Parks and Recreation Department would have to face in operat- ing the pool. Also some operational arrangements such as control of access to the site by the school district and the public. Basically, we took this arrangement which we felt properly satisfied the demonstrated needs The first thing we -did, with regards to f-iscal con- straints, was try to come with a phase,, so we said if it is possible, by hook or by crook, to come up with another $200,000, we could come up with a phased pro- ject that would allow us to build the basic pool, a phased accessory building, planning on coming back in a.subsequent year rehabilitating the tennis courts and • expanding the parking lot. We also looked at it -with regards to some functional modifications. * The bleacher facility which was proposed to, in the ^architect's presentation, be up in this area. We hink we can make more functional use of the deck area xf we use collapsible bleachers much like the ones you have in your gymnasiums and so we are looking at how we can best accommodate that. . So we were faced with a number of needs. We felt it was best to con- . strain our maintenance access to the side over here• rather than from the more public side so we came up with separating out from a major building here', the mechanical portion and th.e equipment storage portion and putting it over here where we could have access from the south parking lot and it would_ be screened from the street by the landscaped area. We could also incorporate in one of the walls of that facility with the exterior wall surrounding the pool. We could _also use the other' side of that building as the basic \ousing unit for pull-out bleachers. That way I felt safer and Mr. Johnson felt safer in bringing in those large chlorine bottles into this area and not mixing that with the public access. We also felt that by basically taking the proposal and flipping it over, which is what we basically did, putting the building MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLSB'D PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING WMISSIGNERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers up here, you could better control access from the school site, access from the public side with regards to having central facilities and control access from the school site without having to run across the pool site to get into the buildings for showers, or locker rooms or restrooms or ultimately administrative rooms or classroom facilities we may choose to have here. So that is basically it. We felt that locating mechanical equipment here, while it does have the dis- . advantage of having to run plumbing from this building as well as to this building, we felt that the proximity of the equipment to the deep end of the pool which is up here would shorten the major pipe run and shorten th process of recirculating the processing of the water. It would also allow for the people sitting in the bleac hers to look directly at the diving and to have at least an . equal view of the pool. Now it does have a negative aspect in that if you have late afternoon session in the -winter time you will have a little sun over here but frankly we anticipated the major opera- tions would be in the area of 2 to 5 p.m. with com- petition maybe going to. 6 p.m. and it's going to be ore spring/summer so we'll have a higher sun with a little different aspect. We didn't figure the sun view into the spectators eyes would be significant. That's basically it. We feel we can bring this concept in, the phase 1 concept in for something between 1 and 1.2 million dollars. The cost of rehabilitating the tennis courts, lighting them and expanding the parking lot (south) would be a secondary function. We felt it was absolutely necessary to provide this parking lot now for several reasons. One, this will be the major sourc of parking, it's available for use by the school at night time when they have football games and so forth, having two accesses in and out we'll split the demand and prevent congestion, the normal conflicts after the football games, get the crowds out and have less hassle with it. It could also provide the possibility of, as Dr. Deason pointed out, having an access into the foot- ball field here. That's basically it. The bicycle parking, although it is not designated, will be the same as outlined in these concepts. That's basically it. At this point, I think the best thing to do is open up and have a question and answer session." » Commissioner Kinghorn: "Wouldn't the building serve to block the cool ocean breeze of 8 to 10 miles per hour?1 -ir. Beckman: "Yes it would. That was one of the points Mr. Johnson had in mind and I forgot to mention it. Thank you for bringing it up." Mr. Johnson: "Could you .direct your questions to Bill first? Then if you have any questions of Ron or I, we will respond. We want to get all of your comments so we may relate them to Council." Mr. Kelly: "Bill, what was the reason for putting the pool in the middle of the complex rather than the northern edge?" _.Mr. Warkentin: "The principle reason for putting it in he center was that granting access off of Basswood meant that you have to have some sort of through cir- culation. In order to make that through circulation workable, that is, as to not make a culdesac out of it and to maximize this area of parking. The most prac- tical thing to do is make it as big and square as - i possible. It's just that simple. The square, the I \ {, - A. i W«t t ikV 1 MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : S^KE OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: CITY OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers 'MMISSIONERS more rectangular it is the more efficient the circulati system, the more stalls you get per sq. ft. of dirt. That's why I choose, what this really amounts, to these three arrows represent three aisles with six lanes of parking, with 2 on each aisle in an absolute rectangul fashion. It represents the most efficient parking scheme I could come up with. • I tried it with one, two, three, and four, but it worked out with given the area we had to have in here, three worked out rather well. It kind of took this entire southern edge, if you will, and effectively made another unit of that other plan- ning unit, that is to say that the parking and the tennis courts form a kind of a module that's easy to handle cost wise and construction wise." Mr. Kelly: you?" "Now listen to our point of view. Would Mr. Warkentin: "Sure." .Mr. Kelly: "The school has already voted funds to >uild a building just south of the parking. Sometime the school or the city will pick up those other single family homes in there. It seems at least to me, as far as the school is concerned, we would be better off if that was pushed to the north not cramping our cam- •pus. I realize it may not go all the way to the north but I see your problem with the parking. It looks to me that we would get more parking on the south side which would be adjacent to the little theatre area where it might be more useful. In other words, a dual use of parking." Commissioner Wollrich: the center section?" "What's the width of the pool, Mr. Warkentin: "The pool is approximately 180 ft. long so I am going to have to guess at the moment and say it is about 250 ft." Commissioner Egermayer: "If you move the pool to the north and would not the space you have marked for ve- hicular circulation, your appendix there, be absolutely useless to you at this stage?" Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "It could become a grec ~~ervice area, Don. Staff parking and-your service en- ^rance." Commissioner Egermayer: "Then you are putting it fur- ther from the school and protection." Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "It's much safer." Mr. Beckman: "You would totally lose the ability to access from the two separate streets." Mr. Warkentin: "I think the access point, let me dis- cuss that for just .a brief moment. One is, should it resolve itself that pan-handle is used as an entity and not connect through any other circulation, if you -.till had a parking lot here and one that was not pro- jected with this one, you have to have two points of access off of Monroe. I think with 200 .ft. across here you don't want to put two access points. It's a potential traffic hazard. The way we have it set up now with with the through circulation, traffic can flow in two different directions on two total separate n MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: CITV OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING MMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers streets which certainly facilitates the traffic and reduces the hazard potential. I'm sensitive to your concern about the shared parking and I'm not going to argue for this one in response to that except to say, the shared parking we were looking at -here was more for football games and that sort of thing where this is directly opposite the bleachers as opposed to shar- ing parking with a currently non-existant, in the planning, stages cultural arts center. Now, I had a discussion with Mr. Whitener a couple of days ago and indicated our willingness to look at your plans to see what we could do, thus far that hasn't happen- ed but certainly it will." Mrs. Scherr: "I can see that you have to get.access from both of the streets, but if we could come up with some alternative proposal for the parking for the pre- sent and not move it clear over to the extreme north, any distance you can move it to the north will be to the advantage of not only the district but to the citizens. Eventually, I think, we'll get that little square of land below the panhandle, I don't expect "hat to be a panhandle indefinitely. I would hope that would be a consideration. If we get a permanent facility such as a pool for example, which is going to crowd towards what we hope to be the performing arts center, then visually and function/ally, I think we'll all be handicapped before your 50 years or however long we use it. I think it is extremely important we think of the long range plans and I think its very un- fortunate we don't already have part of that land to the north. That's been under negotiations for quiet some time. I certainly don't wish to hold up the development of the pool any longer." Mr. Beckman: "That's an excellent point.- As the architect pointed out, he has been instructed by .the City to establish liasion with the school district. Remember, the performing arts center came in way after the pool, to establish liasion and try to maximize use but I think any precommittment to what we do now other than concept is kind of premature until we can see what your layout of the performing arts center is and what parking you'll be providing as part of that develop- ment." . . . Mrs. Scherr: "Just let me say we have no.surplus of -space.'.' Mr. Beckman: "Nobody does." Commissioner Wollrich: "Where do you exp.ect to have . the entrance to your performing arts center, facing- the pool?" Mrs. Scherr: "I don't know if they are that far along Are they, Doug?" . • Dr. Deason: "They've looked at both sides in regards to parking I guess that would be one of the constraints but the initial plan was to have the entrance on the .north side." Mr. Warkentin: "That would be along this access road off of Monroe?" CITY OF CARLSB D MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : *"~ME OF MEETING : . ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p'.m. City Council Chambers jxpect to have how many for student parking?" Dr. Deason: "During construction, probably none.." Mrs. Scherr: "But eventually that lot will be deepen- ed. The plan is to pave that area in back. No? We won't have any parking on it?" Dr. Deason: " Two years from now, depending on the pool, the school will not have adequate parking for the students. " Mr. Warkentin: "I'd like to point out the total number of stalls we are proposing is 260 stalls which almost doubles the current capacity whi'ch isn't tt> say that may not be enough. I'm not totally clear on what the student demand on parking is but at least it is an increase, almost double what's there now." Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "In your preliminary data gathering phase, what would you anticipate, in a community this size and a.pool that size during nor- mal school hours, 8-3, between October and April, how many people in this community do you feel will be -utilizing that pool? Could we anticipate'5 cars from he community to be in the parking lot, 250 to be in the parking lot?" Mr. Johnson: "Maybe I can give Bill a little help on that. In the utilization study, talking about block system, or block time, 11 until 1 or 2, the types of programs the city will have would be special programs that can be related to handicapped, senior citizens, people in relationship to that status. So I think, understanding this, in relationship to general swim, would indicate- your percentage would be quiet less." _Mr. DeDiminicantanio : "What I'm leading to is with '60 spots, can we think of that as being^200 reserved for student parking during the bulk of the day. Is that a realistic approach? -MMISSIONERS Dr. Deason: "You have your gymnasium, the pool and cultural arts center all at one end." Commissioner Wollrich: "Doesn't your gymnasium have its entrance at the end of that street and you would have your main entrance to the cultural arts center on the north, side of the building." Dr. Deason: "Facing north." Commissioner Wollrich: "It seems to me with the gymnasium, pool and cultural arts center there, it would be more advantageous to have it north than south. You have parking too, down south. " Mrs. Scherr: "But not very much. Doug, do you know the current capacity of that parking lot, the student parking lot?" f Dr. Deason: "Capacity is 140 cars." \f c Qr-l-i o-r v • "Hnfo -f-Vie> rx-inl ic iinrfov r-nncif-viiff--inn T»rp I * MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: CITY OF CARLSEAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7 :30 p.m. City Council Chambers Mr. Beckman: "The agreement provides from 8-11 and 2-5 the pool and facilities are available to the schoo district. We were discussing that earlier with Dr. Deason. I think there can be some operational agreement to what we would need to reserve for .the demands of mid- da'y programming the city would have. The rest of the time the facilities are available for use by the school district.. That's part of the agreement." Mr. Kelly: "That doesn't really solve the problem, Ron of parking. When a child comes to school first period and goes home last period his car will be there during that time." Mr. Beckman: "I recognize that. What I'm saying, \vhat Ed is saying, is without being able to give you numbers of what the programs are, we are anticipating that the types of programs sponsored by the city, 11 -2 time span, are going to be programs that probably will not generate large numbers of cars. We should be able to ^reserve a block of spaces for that use and the rest luld be available for whoever uses them." Mr. Kelly: "The other problem, I can certainly see your need for double entry but by the same token that parking lot becomes a haven forunwatched children. Again, it would be much more advantageous if we could have as much of that parking lot on the south side in view of administration, school people, rather than hidden out behind. It isn't going to solve the problem entirely but I hope th'at maybe you can- take out aisle 3 and leave 2 aisles on the north side. For instance, if you came in on the south side and out on Monroe, you'd still be quite a ways from the pedestrian en- trance and the traffic entrance too." Mr. Warkentin: "The point's well taken. I think in response to that I would like to point out a couple of things. One is that to look at the site, it is almost a rectangle with the exception of the-pan-handle. In fact that's not the case because of the existance of the 2 tennis courts. What that does is there is a mini mum-width that's approximately 70 ft. for a double aisle of parking which is the most efficient kind, straight in 90 degree parking, double loaded takes abou 70 ft. If you took the 70 ft. here, you could put it -"-ack here. The problem is it doesn't allow for turn round and if you throw a culdesac 70 ft. wide, on the end of that you cut out about half of the stalls that you gained in the first place because you lose them to turn around. So that was the problem. It was some- thing we had to be sensitive to, the geometry of the- site is such that you have to take advantage where you can and it also offers some constraints. The other critical issue I would like to point out, our firm has no control over it whatsoever. We simply have to re- spond to it at the point and build in the flexibility that we can and that is the possible -acquisition of that corner. Whatever happens in the future to that is something else. Our intention is to provide for as much flexibility as we possibly can. Our initial dis- assion with staff focused on the fact that it was un- likely that it would be an auxiliary pool use. It would not be another part of the pool complex. So that the pool complex itself could exist reasonable indepen- dent of the uses there, so what could happen whatever this became the location of major parking here or the addition, if you will, of some additional parking if OF CARLSB'D MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers IMMISSIONERS that became necessary would allow people to park cen- trally and go in either direction to use those two fa- cilities whatever the second one might be. We simply don't know. If we had some direction on that we could respond to it." - Mrs. Scherr: "Doug, has there ever been any master planning, high school master plan that called for any kind of facility down there?" Dr. Deason: "Not really." Mrs. Scherr: "Can you anticipate any need for that o.ther than parking?" Dr. Deason: "Not from the school" s point of view." Mrs. Scherr: "Jhat would be my only feeling at this time. We would need it primarily for parking." Mr. Warkentin: "I don't know what the city's point of iew would be on that. Who would acquire it? Would it o>e the school or city?" Commissioner DeDimincantanio: "Would the removal of the tennis courts aid any in the parking situation?" Mr. Warkentin: "One possibility is, should you move this over one aisle and lose the tennis courts and pick up an extra aisle here, you'd have plenty of room for turn around. That would be a possibility. Then you could use it very effectively and generate maximum efficiency out of the area." Commissioner Wollri-ch: tennis courts." . "That would mean losing 2 city Mr. Warkentin: "Yes, it would." Mr. Kelly: "We're building nine courts." Commissioner Wollrich: "But they're school courts and not available all day long and wouldn't be available for the adult group that, neetis them. In fact, I think the young adult group needs more recreation area than anybody.". ommissioner Kinghorn: "I think Mr. Kelly's point in regard to control in that parking area. I can see a real problem the way it is there with some of the things that take place with high school drivers and I don't know if the panhandle going out to Basswood do-es give you another road for cars to go up but I do see other problems there as far as football games with cars coming out on Basswood and off of Monroe down Basswood. There seems to be safety p'roblems and I'm not sure a safety engineer looking at that traffic pattern might feel that it is not to good of a thing at that point. I'm not sure about that because walking down Basswood after a football game, that's a very vulnerable point ~^s far as traffic is concerned." Mr. Warkentin: "I'think from a traffic engineering standpoint there are a number of things that can be done to either passive control or active control. By having access on two different points someone who wants to go here, it's highly possible that's also where they are coming from, they may be going home or i v MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING: CITY OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING tMMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers coming back, they are entering and they exit there. The same thing would hold true as a traffic engineering principle still operates in this condition and secondarily, one of the thoughts I had, I took a look at that white line once I had it drawn in color. I though, that's a hell of a drag strip. It's a real concern and I'm not trying to down play it but you don't. drag strip if you've got 3 speed dumps in the area. There's just no way to do it. There are effec- tive devices for contol-ling it. Mr. Beckman: "Remember this, our recommendation is that the building be put on that end of the pool site and we'll have pool personnel there." Mr. Kelly: "I like your recommendation better than his . Excuse me. " ' * Mr. Warkentin: "Certainly." Commission Wollrich: "Doesn't a smaller parking lot a between a residence and the swimming pool building niake it more of a problem for vandalism and high school hijinks whereas if you've got a big open space you'd have less problem." Mr. Kelly: "Ed, what do you plan on doing to the tennis courts? When you say refurbish are you going to start from the beginning or are you going to use the present base?" Mr. Johnson: " There are areas we feel we would have to replace, the rest of it will be refurbished." Mr. Kelly: "Is .there any possibility, Bill, of taking the city's whole . complex and moving it down toward the street and run the panhandle right there?" Mr. Warkentin: "That is a possibility. We looked at that but the reason I didn't recommend it was for a reason we haven't discussed yet and that's a noise buffer. Our proposal as opposed to staff's proposal and-. they are not in opposition, it's just 2 alternatives to review. Ours was to substantially comply w-ith the mitigations of the EIR, one of which was repeated several times, was the issue of noise abatement, buf- ^ering for the adjacent residences so by moving the ool as far west as we could, locating as close to the campus, if you will, we moved it as far as it could be from local residences. Moving it close to the corner kept it away from here, it's as far back from these residences as it can possibly be. The turf and trees and the building here and in both cases that holds true turf, turf and a wall, in both cases it will act as a buffer. That was the reason for putting it near the football field." Mr. Kelly: "What's the width of the present panhandle? Mr. Warkentin: '.'It's about 75 ft., just enough to " ccommodate a double load of one aisle double-load Barking." Commissioner Kinghorn: "Will the building be sound proof, closed in, air condition, so the noise won't get out?" • I• IS1 . • - ^ c\ L k V MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : OF MEETING : ICE OF MEETING: CIT' OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7;30 p.m. City Council Chambers MMISSIONERS Mr.- Warkentin: "The noise we're talking about is really from the pool itself, kids in the pool." Commission Kinghorn: "I've heard kids in buildings before too. Sometimes noise travels.1'- Mr. Warkentin: "I think the kind of building we are dis cussing is the kind of building that's inhabited for a short time for very specific purposes, showers, undress ing. It's not a class room situation and it's not a gymnasium." Mr. Kelly: lanes?" 'Ron, what's the width of two driving Mr. -Beckman: "Bill's approximation was correct for a double-loaded driving lane, you have about 70 ft." Mr. Kelly: "You are talking about parking too, though?' Mr. Beckman: "Did you say driving lanes or parking?" r. Kelly: "Just driving, 24, 32?" Mr. Beckman: "It depends on what you have on either side. If you have clear non-obstruction on either side you can get by with 24. But if you've got obstructions which create a visual barrier, you need a couple more feet." Mr. Warkentin: "The point, I think I see what you are leading too, and one thing I want to point out is that another reason for putting the pool here is and one of the principle reasons for putting the building in that corner was to facilitate direct, immediate and safe access by school children from the campus- to the build- ing without going through the parking lot or having to cross the deck." Mr. Kelly: "Have you thought about a door leading out to the football field in that accessory building for use during football games as a John?" Mr.' Warkentin: "No, I hadn't."» Mr. Beckman: "We discussed that this afternoon and it's possible. But it would create a couple other "roblems. You are opening up the facility to a com- ^letly different kind of crowd which is not controlled as it would be under pool circumstances. So we would have to have more concern in regards to vandalism in designing our fixtures. Secondly, it would present ". us with an inter-phasing problem if we had a function going on at the pool and you have people coming in from the outside and access from the inside. You're asking for trouble. Not that it. can't be done and it will be considered but those are the 2 off the top. We did discuss that and it certainly -will be looked at." Commissioner Wollrieh: "I would think; the factor of ^another access to the school grounds and therefore urther opening to' vandalism would be a factor that «rould negate any possible use." Mr. Beckman: "I'm not that concerned about it during controlled school functions." Commissioner Wollrieh: football game." No, I was thinking of a CITY OF CARLSBAD MINUTES OF:PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING fMMISSIONERS DATE OF MEETING : February 16, 1978 TIME OF MEETING ? 7:30 p.m. iCE OF MEETING: City Council Chambers Mrs. Scherr: "I would like to see that considered. I would hope it would be possible to design it in such a way that the restrooms could be completely locked off from the rest of the building . What I'm thinking, someone mentioned it while we were Ipoking'at the - drawings, you already have a building there, you already have plumbing there, we would be very happy if you coulc accommodate more than one purpose." Commissioner Wollrich: "What is the cost of those 'vandal-proof-john fixtures'." Mr. Beckman: right now." "I couldn't begin to give you that Mr. Kelly: "The school does furnish security people during football games in the restrooms." » Mr. Beckman: "That certainly might facilitate it. Our experience from talking to the State Parks people down on the beaches is not good." .s. Scherr: "They do not have security." Mr. Beckman: "No, they do not have security." Commissioner Wollrich: "How would you then be able to secure, lock off, more than the normal door of the bathrooms for the pool area from the clients of the football game? They certainly would have to be separate. " " ' . Mr. Beckman: "It depends on whether we have to serve dual purposes, swimming pool and football at the same time, it does create quite a bit more problem and its a problem that would have to be addressed in the specific design. If it can be one or the other,- it is a simple matter of keying your inside doors. You can have keys open doors on the school side of the build- ing that could not get into the build-ing." Commission Wollrich: "There would still be a lock? that's the weakest feature. Could the school consider adding their restroom building to that side and there would be the plumbing situation?" _Mrs. Scherr: "That would be a remote possibility." Commission Wollrich: "Remote, naturally. That would solve the problem and restrooms don't run that much then you would be abutting right on the building." Commissioner Egermayer: "Let me say this. We are talking about a swimming pool that you don't have enough money for now. If you start building double function and structures, such as double restrooms, for non-swimming pool purposes, you're running even further out of funds we don't have. -I'd like to see the pool built. I'm 69 years old, I'd like to swim _in it. I understand long before I came on this ommission, which was 3 years ago, since about 3 years oefore that they have been^talking about a pool and haven't got it yet.' And they haven't got money for what they want. So let's talk about getting something for the money we've got." MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : " ACE OF MEETING: CITY OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers >MMIS SIGNERS Commissioner DeDimi'nicantanio: "I'm glad you mentioned that. Betty accuses me of being too partial to the schools but right now my only concern is about this community and how this pool has dragged out, and dragged out and what was a $250,000 expenditure 8 years ago when I first started on it is now a $1.2 million pro- ject. And for anyone to even consider not building this pool totally and completely with every thing that's needed at this time, right now, particularly when we •are sitting on a $12 million reserve; I thing we need to go back and look at that very, very closely because that parking lot is not going to cost us today's price 5 years from now, it's going to cost us five times as much, refurbishing those tennis courts is going to cost five timers as much. Give this community a first rate facility." Commission Kinghofn: "That's long overdue." * Mr. Johnson: "I would like to say, all the comments will be responded to the Council. I'm glad all of these are being brought out. I don't know if we can nswer all of them now, but we do want you to identify chose things. That's why the new building is where it is in relationship to where it was." Mrs. Scherr: "What do you mean by the building is where it is now instead of where it was?" Mr. Warkentin: "The building is in this corner as opposed to this corner." Mr. Johnson: "That's just one other potentiality." Mrs. Scherr: "What potentiality?" Mr. Johnson: "Of the statements you just said, that you want the restrooms for football games." Mrs. Scherr: "You mean the building was put there with that in mind?" Mr. Johnson: ties." "That is one of maybe fifteen possibili- Mrs. .Scherr: "I would like to strongly second what Joe said. This community has proven over and over "'gain that they do really want the pool. The gentle- .an is not the only one in the community who would like to use the pool. There have been times when I have seriously doubted that I would ever see the pool, long, long overdue. I would like to make a strong proposal that for once we put in a first class facili- ty and let's finish it and let's make sure we landscape it and not create any more economical eyesores that the citizens are really unhappy about. The election is getting near and I hope it is a big election issue. There are people in this town that want Carlsbad to look like a first class city and it does not." Commissioner Kinghorn: "Let's try to get the swimming _pool into the.election." Mrs. Scherr: "Thank goodness the pool is out of that kind of an issue. The concept, design and planning are admirable and is certainly very thorough and I'm de- lighted we are this far. The rest is past .history and I would like to know if there is a tentative time line. CI"~Y OF CARLSE~\D MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : ""'ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p'.m. City Council Chambers here and I think we should hear if they have any ideas so they are heard and I have some ideas too." Mr. Beckman: "The purpose of this meeting is so every body who has had something to do with the pool being where it is is heard," Mrs. DeWeese: -"I see a real viable possibility of mov- ing that pool over 2 arrows in number 3\ And I have a question, is there any possibility, if the high school acquires that corner land, putting the performing arts building there? In which case the large parking area that is grey is a good place to have that. Otherwise, I-see putting the parking on the other side and push- ing the pool away from the school as a better condi- tion than the picture shows Bright now. All we really need at the front of the pool is parking for e'mergency vehicles and access to drop people off and to pick them up. " ' • . Ir. Kelly: "The pool committee did not recommend this high school site, they wanted it any other place ex- cept on the high school and probably their best reason was that for community use, you have some kid looking in saying, 'Look at the old fat lady,' or something.' This might, if we had that pool 2 arrows north, as Gail says, then the people from the community who are going to use the pool could park on that one arrow and not on the panhandle yo.u will have effectively as community parking and school- parking. -Your separate the sheep from the goats, I'm not saying which is which. You will tend to separate the community and it's cars and peop.le from the school." Commissioner Kinghdrn: "I don't know if"you separate those 2 arrows if you are going to pick up the 70 feet you need on the other side or not."' ISSIONERS Mr.' Beckman: "The outcome of tonight's meeting, the presentation that you heard, and your comments will be delivered to the Council. We are a-iming at the meet- ing on March 7. If we have agendas like we had the last couple of times, it maybe March 1\ 1979. No, just kidding. We are gearing for March 7, to get to the Council." Mrs. Scherr: "And it would essentially be the presen- • tation we have tonight with a summary of the input from this committee?" Mr. Beckman: "That's correct." Mr. Kelly: "Are we going to talk about the pool itself tonight?" Mr. Beckman:' "If you have comments to make about specific concerns regarding the function of the pool, certainly tonight would be an appropriate time to make it because it would be incorporated in the record and the record is what the architect is going to be in- structed to go on when he designs it." Commissioner Wollrich: "The actual specifics of the pool will follow closely those recommendations." Mr. Kelly: "We have some pool committee people over |En • MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : ~~&CE OF MEETING; CITY OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers MMISSIONERS Mr. Warkentin: "I think you will. The only point I would make about that is, I. don' t think 100 cars is sufficient, parking for summer use of the pool, that's not adequate. I say 100 cars because that is about all you'll get in here in one row. I would then be tempted, if that's the direction, to take this entry and put it over on that side because then you would have a much larger parking area. I think you should look at the issue of: Do you want to have the smallest parking area feeding the principal pedestrian area or do you want to have the major parking area feeding the prinicipal pedestrain access? Purely from a functional planning point of view there is no choice except to say yes, wherever the majority of the people are going to be is where the pedestrian access is going to be." Mr. Beckman: "We would also greatly constrain a posi- tive feature, from a traffic engineering point of view, it is a positive feature, having two outlets, you would constrain it only to 200 cars." Mr. Kelly: "I think in answer to Gail's questions, that's completely out of the question, on where to put the cultural arts center. Basically because everybody has said they don't want to move Mrs. McNeil until she ready to move." Mr. Beckman: "We are proposing to put a concrete bloci wall around the complex,in any event for sound control. So there isn't going to be this- visual problem except probably from over the bleachers, over the building am whether you move the pool 70 ft. doesn't make any diff- erence." Commissioner DeDimincantanio: "During the majority of the school year, during the school day, relatively few' people will be using the pool. Right? What's wrong with 100 parking spaces for them? Because during the summer, the majority of students at school are fresh- men and sophomores, (Juniors and Seniors you can't keej there during the regular school year") and they don't drive to school. The parking lot is empty during sum- mer school." * Mr. Warkentin: "I think our recommendation at this stage of the game would be that once the pool is in, that parking lot won't be empty during the summer. Th< reason for having the parking lot there is to have ad- equate parking for those people expected to use the pool. There would be more cars on the north side park ing than on the south side parking area so the logic that would follow would be why not move the pedestrian access to that point. I don't see any problem with that particularly." Commissioner Kinghorn: ing out on Monroe." "Then there's a driveway corn- Mr. Warkentin: "Well, what I think would happen, the way I've been shown this thing, my assumption has been we could take access off of the exisiting curb cut. Maybe it would be like a four way intersection opposit the one going into the performing arts center. Then they would both come off here and feed into Monroe off of that access. I don't know if that has a name or not, it has a curb cut like a street but it is clearly a school facility at the moment." MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING ? "~"ACE OF MEETING: crv OF CARLSE^D PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.'m. City Council Chambers 'MMISSIONERS Mr. Kelly: "You wouldn't expect any vehicular access up to the performing arts center, pedestrian access?" Mr. Warkentin: "Thinking of a truck access for loadin stage equipment and that sort of thing.- You do want some kind of service access to the performing arts cen ter. And since there is a road here anyway and an existing, curb cut, it wouldn't make any sense to put another one down here to come off here and turn into a parking lot." Mr. Beckman: 'Candidly, and this is just right off the top of my head, if you are talking about just a row of parking and the panhandle to handle 100 ears you may as well eliminate it all on that side and put it all on the other side because you have an ineffective opening on Monroe and it.would be better to lump them together and have two. ,But then, you've got to remember again and it is a very significant point in the EIR again, again, and again. The closer we move that to the nort] the more of a noise problem we're going to have." Commissioner Wollrich: "There should be some sort of thing relating to the community people who might want to go there to swim. Now are they going to be delegat ed'to the north where there's no parking or, and have to go into the school kids parking where there will be no parking, summer or not? Then again, if you have the community people parking in the one lane on the north, they are going to have to walk all the way aroun through the school site." Mr. Kelly: "We can walk around otherwise, 'people walking both ways anyway." You've got Commissioner Wollrich: "But the entrance is another factor. If we have our entrance on the north side away from the school we have better control." Mrs. DeWeese: 'Could the entrance to the pool be on the east with the parking lot beside the pool? See what I mean with the parking lot right beside the yellow building?" « ' .- Mr. Warkentin: "This would be along the Monroe front- age. You mean actually have the pedestrians coming through here? Sure, that's a possibility. It'*s e- qually as valid as anyone. Our problem was that we wanted to have the pedestrain drop off point on site rather than off site. The street's not a wide street, it's really not a major thoroughfare and there's reall not enough room for buses or cars to drop off little kids." Mrs. DeWeese: "That would not work if we used the small concept because the building is over there on th other side. On that small•concept, being a person who works around pools a great deal, the little building on the southeast, I would like to see off my deck." Mr. Warkentin: "This is the building that houses the pool equipment.". Mrs. DeWeese: side." "Take it off the deck and put it out- OF CARLSE~\D MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : "~'ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COIWISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers iMMIS SIGNERS Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "For all intense pur- poses, it is. There.is "no access behind the building, between the buildin-g and the. wall.". Commissioner Wollrich: wall, that culdesac." 'Yes, but you'd run into that Mr. Warkentin: "You just don't want to cut down on your deck space." Mrs. DeWeese: "That's right." Mr. Warkentin: "Okay. That's a finite design that we can handle. I think that what the staff has done here reflects a version of what we have here. Those bleach ers are to be housed in one wall of this building. That's a building that is literally a building, it's not a shed 4 ft. high or something, but they are to be housed in a building large enough to hold them, they are fixed at that point. And as you extend them out within a given proximity to the edge of the pool so that the viewing and all occurs in a reasonable fashio as well as having- circulation for judges and competi- tors." Mrs. DeWeese: too." 'There's a little blind spot in there Mr. Beckman: "That ca'n easily be taken out. In the consideration on the right it ends up with more deck space and more closel'y approximate to- the control building than in the other one. If you want to take out that little corner, that's fine." As Bill says, it is a finite design consideration that we don't want to waste a lot of -time spinning our wheels on it. You input now is valuable when we design it." Mrs. DeWeese: "Where's the pump room?" Mr. Warkentin: "It was assumed that- the pump room would be part of the building. It would be separated for safety reasons, not in it, another building adja- cent to it, part of the same building. Our assumption was that once you've got robf and'walls and you've got the safety precautions, it's cheaper to build one building," "Mrs. Scherr: "This building she is referring to is on the southeast, that is purely to house bleachers?" Mr. Warkentin: "No, it's primary function is to house the pool equipment. Secondarily, since you have the building, it .is very easy to attach the bleachers to it." Mrs. DeWeese: "Where are' the solar panels?" Mr. Warkentin: "The utilization of solar energy for hot water heating or space heating is subject to a feasibility study. And the EIR mandated, if you will, the development of that feasible study, has not been done. I don't know at this moment if it's cost effec- tive to put it in there and if it is how it would go in this and if it isn't what would the justification be for not putting it in there. That simply hasn't been done. We are dealing with conceptual land plans only, we haven't gotten into that." OF CARLSBAD MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING r "~"ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p'.m. City Council Chambers •MMIS SI ONERS Mrs. DeWeese: "!• know we are going to have some prob- lems heating the pool from' gas and. electric company hookups. " Mr. Warkentin: "The study of solar heating right now is such that the information we've been given is that the area of collectors that you would need to adequate ly supply heat for a pool is so large that you simply couldn't afford it, absolutely not cost effective. So when I say space heating and domestic hot water, that' why I used those terms. Those are auxiliary functions that could be handled by collectors but not the pool itself. That's not to say it can't be done. There is a possibility as the technology increased and the collectors are made more efficient and you can have directional collectors also those that will attract th sun. There are a number of things that can be done an in our feasibility study we will address that in our scope of work. It's just that at this stage of the game, prior to having a concept we didn't want to ask our mechanical engineer to investigate it yet." Mrs. DeWeese: "How tall is the block wall and is it going to go completely around the pool?" Mr. Warkentin: "I'm not sure. I.don't know it it's necessary to go all the way around the pool or if it can go partially. Certainly it has to go in all areas at least in this much,' which would be kind of an alter nate horseshoe shape to attenuate noise from the pool to the adjacent community. Whether or not that has to be attenuated to the high school, that's another _question. The playing field next door generates as much noise as a swimming pool so it's a -give and take situation." Mrs. DeWeese: "I was thinking of the west side becaus of the wind that comes in." Mr. Warkentin: "Could be a solid opaque wall is put up simply in response to the cool ocean breezes." Mrs. DeWeese: "If it's all the way around, you don't have to worry about the. parking lot.and pulling it away from the school." Mr. Warkentin: There's also a slope bank as yo'u must all be aware, that must be 10 or 12 ft. from here down to the playing field, it's a good drop. So visually from the school you won't see the,pool at all. You'll never see it even if there were no fence at all." Mrs. Scherr: . "Is the landscaping all inside of this big block wall?" Mr. Warkentin: "I suppose if the block wall is on the property line, yes, it would be. Since I don't think the city is going to landscape the school property, if the block wall were inbound, if you will, the prop- erty line the answer would be the opposite." Mrs. Scherr: "They currently planned it- to be right on the borderline." Mr. Warkentin: "It isn't currently planned anyway." OF CARLSE^D MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING TIME OF MEETING ~~ACE OF MEETING PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers iMMISSIONERS Mr. Beckman: "In the proposal on the right, there are two small landscaped areas inside-the wall and one larger, one outside the wall." Mr. Johnson: "Your parking areas will'be landscaped." Mrs. DeWeese: "Perhaps a chest high fence blocking th grass from the deck." Mr. 'Beckman: "The reason they were located there, Mr. Johnson considered that was the prevailing winds that could take things into the pool. That's why they were not located on the west." Mrs. DeWeese: "Prevailing feet will." Mr. Beckman: "I understand and that's a design con- sideration but- we are not dealing with that degree of specificity at this time. As Bill pointed out we are talking about a very general plan, not any design de- tails." Commissioner Tarango: "What about the feasibility of a tilt wall as opposed to concrete block walls?" Mr. Warkentin: "At this point in- time, there is abso- lutely nothing finalized about that at all. The wall will be of a sufficient height to attenuate noise and of material that will be scenicly pleasing, in concert with the building and the rest of the construction, an economical." .Commissioner Tarango: cost-wise?" "Would you say th,at was feasibl Mr. Warkentin: "I think there is a number of criteria that enter into that point. One of the discussions we've been looking at is what is the pool to be made of? It would very well be agunitepool. You have the technology available to use that block wall, stucco with gunite over it. It could be a lot of things. If it's an aluminum pool perhaps it's something different We' look for every cost effective savings device we can minimize number of contractors and all of those things. Commissioner Tarango: "There's nothing worse than a „, block wall that is cracked five years down the road." Mr. Warkentin: "That's true." Commissioner Tarango: "Tilt walls are there to stay. They are good looking architecturally, never cracks, durable, vandal proof, the blocks don't fall off the corner." Commissioner Kinghornr "Gail mentioned that SDG§E, it might not have been as relative to this pool, but have you done studies about a bubble over or a cover and consider the cost that over the cost of heating the pool over a long range span of time?" Mr. Warkentin: "Like an inflatable structure that would cover the entire pool?" MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING i OF MEETING: CITY OF CARLSBAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers SSIONERS Commissioner Kinghorn:, "I think the YMCA has one down the coast in Encinitas -and they have about the same climate as we do." Mr. Lynch: "I think it would be safe without going to •extensive analysis, it probably would prove infeasible to try to offset the cost of a cover based on energy cost sayings with any kind of realistic recovery time. There may be a lot of other benefits to having that cover, but it's very doubtful that you could analyze it on any kind of cost deficit ratio, that you could offset 0 and M costs and make life cycle, costs and work recovery. It would be very doubtful in my mind that you could make that work. I don't know if that really answers your question." Commissioner Kinghorn: "I don't know either." Mr. Lynch: "there's no question that you get more hours of useable time you get more users annually and if you ran the numbers on cost ratio of users to cost, etc., you could probably make a case for that sort of cover but to that you might be able to add a few dol- lars savings for 0 and M costs on heating and if you included all those factors in a cost benefit ratio, you may conclude that that's a ne.at deal." Commissioner Kinghorn: "I think you'd have to, after all, get a cover." Commissioner Tarango": a short break." "At this time.I'd like to call Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "One of the things tha keeps popping up with the parking lot business is the tennis courts where they are. It seems to be the center of the problem, and we're working with a large expenditure, over a million dollars, and we're talking about two tennis courts that might be worth twenty- five to thirty thousand dollars, maybe forty on a re- placement factor, so that the community can have a couple of courts to use during the day. With the nine new courts that we're building, I would be more than glad, and I'm sure Doug would have no objection, in reserving two of those tennis courts all day long for the community to use. And they would be two new, first class tennis courts and get rid of those tennis courts out of that spot and create more parking space and that would probably help solve the problem that the school faces in terms of having enough student parking." Commissioner Tarango: "My thoughts about it are that if we had a guarantee in having two tennis courts re- served for the city, I think it would be beneficial to let them use them even though the tennis courts belong to the District. I think that's something to consider." Commissioner Wollrich: "Such courts at the school would have to be easily accessable to the community I ... they would have to be fully maintained exclusively for non-school ki'ds which would mean probably ..." t MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : ACE OF MEETING! CI~Y OF CARLSEAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers >MMIS SIGNERS Commissioner Tarango: , "Access parking ..." Dr. Deasxm.: "The tennis courts would be located on th southwest corner at Valley and Basswood and that means the public ... the School District and the city have ^agreed jointly to provide the public improvements a- long Basswood and Valley and there will be street park ing .available in those areas." Commissioner Wollrich: "I'd like to say something about those tennis courts. As it's been said before, this swimming pool project has been dragged out longer than I think anybody here has been involved with their job and the city wants it. This plan is an admirable one and nit-picking over 60 parking spaces, this idea of the possible use by the city of the school tennis courts is something that should be delved into. In t? meantime, this, plan as is, could go ahead and when the school courts become indeed a reality as this agree- ment is achieved, then these can be blocked out. Afte all, the improvement of the tennis courts is in phase 3 or 4 or something, and it's silly to continue nit- picking over the.same square ft. of asphalt when you'r talking about something that's been going on for 12 years." Mr. Kelly: "Betty, I don't agree with you. If you're going to take the courts out, then it. makes sense to move the pool to the north, don't move the pool, and leave the courts where they are. The only,reason to take the tennis courts out is so you.can move the pool to the north and you can't do that till the decision is made." • Commissioner Wollrich: "I think the whole thing, the nit-picking over parking for non-community people or non-community use is small potatoes." Mrs. Scherr: "You're talking about non-community." Commissioner Wollrich: "I'm talking ... hasn't the whole thing been the fact that this is a community pool? And to make a great thing out of adding more parking for the school and-less parking for any community people who'd like to come there, I think it is again forcing an issue over small things, like parking for your Cultural Arts Center, your having al] the parking lot that's there useable, that's also use able for your football games. It's also a large area to keep out your student activities on parking lots and it also is a buffer for the residents who live there and I think that has been taken into considerat: very lightly, although Mrs. McNeil has been most amen able and cooperative. I don't think we should push it into the ground. I don't think that the school is losing out on any parking lots and if we can work out this thing with the tennis courts it would be for more parking. But I do think that the length of the parking lot on the. south is a detriment to the use of the pool. Then I do think that this parking lot argument is going on and adding to the time element that has already too long drawn out affair is not going to help the' community use. So perhaps this is not a design made in heaven but all 25,.000 people in Carlsbad ... I think it's a stumbling block in gettin, a pool that we desperately need." n CI~Y OF CARLSBAD MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : " ACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council CHambers MMISSIONERS Mr. Kelly: "Two things Betty. Number one, we are the community, that means the school,.that means you, that means the whole crew. Number two, once you "dig a hole, you can't move it and the community has a right to have all it's community buildings look in some de- cent order. Number three, let's go on to something .els Mr. .Beckman: "If we can reach a general concensus of the facility we are talking about, that is the basic pool layout, I think if we can ask appropriate staff and/or representatives from the commissioners or the 'board to proceed to independently address the issue of :Jthe tennis courts: Whether it can or can't go. I -think that the pool site can be shifted 'one arrow nort .:,tyithout significantly or critically sacrificing the }-£unction of that lot or the need for providing appro- priate space to meet the environmental noise problem. .•'-••It' would provide at least double space to the south ... we could address that primary issue. The design o the thing we're all here to talk about will proceed whether it shifts 70 feet to one side or another is a detail I think we can address toward the end of the design." Mrs. Scherr: "We're concerned now about this square here regardless of where that takes place." Mr. Beckman: "That's precisely right." Mr. Lynch: "This area from the standpoint of develop- ing the area itself, is going to be the same area. Fo example, this is 120 feet; 70 feet for a double row of .parking, so probably we'd take another 20 feet to make two double rows of parking. 140 feet across here, even if we move that, it'd be 30 feet, this entire design concept could be developed and .these adjustment could proceed. It would help us and move the process along. I sit through alot of these meetings, but really all that's gone on here tonight has been very, very, constructive. I've sat through much longer meet ings than this and hadn't gotten 10 feet, and really the basic guts of what has been discussed has all beei very helpful, very constructive, and the thing" that's neat is that we're down to 'saying' urell, that's a prett decent overall plan and there are some minor things that you may want to change; get the bleachers, off the deck, those kinds of things, but we're not too far ofJ The major objective is the pool and for us that's rather exciting, because we're close. That means we can probably come to some kind of census about the pool itself." Mr. Kelly: '.'The fact that you want to make the tax thing comes to pay the bill, part school, part city Mr. Lynch: "It's still tax. payer dollars and you wanr to make the best of it and I can't answer all of the details but the exciting thing for us is the pool sounds as if it's really close to what-is good work and make the design modifications, and make sure the fence is right, all that stuff." OF CARLS£~iD MINUTES OF:PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING iMMISSIONERS DATE OF MEETING : February 16, 1978 TIME OF MEETING ; 7:3Q p.m. ACE OF MEETING: City Council Chambers Mrs. Scherr: "On the-staff concept on the right, the size of the pool is. identical to the first proposal. These.figures that you gave me for- the .Z-shaped pool and it's 12,000 square ft., 50 meter pool. No reduc- tion in size from what the staff originally decided?" Mr. Lynch: "Their blob and our blob just has one mor nodule.', The important factor is the pool is the same pool." Commissioner Egermayer: "The impor.tant factor is which of the 4 pool sizes as we talking about? The 50 meter Z pool?" Mr. Johnson: ' "That's right, Don." Mrs. Scherr: "Same size dressing room?" * . . Mr. Lynch: "The dressing room has to be constructed to meet the needs. We're sacrificing at the front end, we're recommending to the council that we sacri- fice the front end if we phase it, and I hear words there too. It's- the administrative offices, any other prbgram related building facilities that are needed. That's why it's there. We've got dressing . . rooms and we've got shower facilities and places to throw clothes and it's the smallest package we can make it on the first phase of construction. The only other thing we can do," we can .truly ignore the equal rights amendment and go all one dressing room. We could save a lot of'money there." Mrs. Scherr: "Officially, I declare a school board meeting in existence since we have a third member of the board here, and he's declined to come forward. Legally we should be officially meeting since we have three members." Mr. Warkentin: "According to the staff concept, access to pool eliminates any drop-'off on Monroe St." Mr. Beckman: "No. It's identical. The drop-off." Mr. Warkentin: "The acces's to Monroe would occur; this is where Gayle Avenue terminates on Monroe. The access' would be through the parking and .the drop-off facility would be on site, not on Monroe." Mr. Beckman: "Even if it shifted one lane north? Which change are you talking about? The building ro- tation?" Mr. Lynch: ."This is access. This is access." Mr. Warkentin: "This is the same point." Mr. Beckman: "That's the access from the public road way to the site.." Mr. Warkentin: "When I say access this is a ... the drop-off is on site." Mrs. Scherr: "Can it be a drop-off?" Mr. Beckman: "If people are going to drop off there, there's nothing we can do on site. But if we provide the proper place on site, we can drop off safely. Some of the people will use it. When I drop my kids MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : •"•"ACE OF MEETING; CHY OF CARLSFAD PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING COMMISSIONERS February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers off at school, I pull off the street. I don't want my kids running across the street and getting zapped. I'm recommending to council that we provide.that; it1 on site adjacent to the parking facility. If people are going to drop off in the street, they'll do it re gardless of what we do. The same way people park in. red spaces. I think we can eliminate that by virtues of no way of coming out that way, the drop off in the parking lot will eliminate the possibility of parking on Monroe and accidents, etc." Mr. Warkentin: "Two points. Number one, people are really good about walking. We have to provide some kind of pedestrian access. Whether we have the build ing here or here, that point along Gayle is the easie Where Gayle terminates is a focal point. Gayle terr minates there and if somehow we can identify that as' key entry, as.a node, an entry point to the site, I think we gained something. Also, it might be one of the places where we can really announce "the presence. Particularly coming along, coming southerly on Monroe will announce the presence of the center. Coming nor therly on Monroe, we might use this. Landscaping a- long a concrete wall, to do it in some way indicating identification." Commissioner DeDiminicantanio: "I'd like to move that the Parks § Recreation Commission acc'ept the" Staff rs proposal for pool and design but not the exact locatioi » Commissioner Kinghorn: "I second the motion." Commissioner Tarango: "All in favor?"- AYES: NOES. ' . Commissioner Egermayer: "I sa-y exact location, the design and I like the location too." I lil Mrs. Scherr: "John, Allen correct me, I think we are pleased with the design concept, is that correct?" Mr. Mamaux-: "I'm pleased with it. I don't see any problems which can't be resolved. It won't get any cheaper if we wait." Mrs. Scherr: "I think we all three feel very strongly that we'd like to see it completed and hot phased.," * Commissioner. DeDiminicantanio: "This calls for a second. I move that the Parks § Recreation Commissio; recommend to the staff that we present a total packagi to the Council and no phasing program for the pool." Commissioner Tarango: AYES: "All in favor?" Mrs. Scherr: "Would you please indicate that there w a quorum present of the school board members who stron ly endorse this? Allen, do you want to state a motion?" is X X X X X OF CARLSEAD MINUTES OF: DATE OF MEETING : TIME OF MEETING : PLACE OF MEETING: PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION •MEETING February 16, 1978 7:30 p.m. City Council Chambers ISSIONERS Mr. Kelly: "I move that the school board endorse the action taken by the Parks § Recreation Commission." Mr. Mamaux: "I second." Mrs. Scherr: "All in favor?" School Board Members: "Aye" Mr. Johnson: "Jim, there's another step we'd like to. take before you leave." Commissioner Tarango: "We'd like some comment from the Pool Commission before you leave." .* • Mrs. DeWeese: "Thank God it's over! It's only, bee-p > 8 years. You get the pool, we'll teach in it!" Mr. Lynch: "On behalf of staff, I would really like to thank you for showing up and giving u's your input and your spirit and cooperation in working together and in so doing, you've saved time." ADJOURNMENT: The meeting was adjourned by Chairaan-'^Farang© at •10:10 p.m. Respectfully submitted, C. Franklrrf, Recording Secertary- fN