HomeMy WebLinkAbout1960-08-05; Municipal Water District; MinutesMINUTES OF A SPECm mETING OF B@&D OF DIRECTORS OF T@E CARILjW' MUNICIPAL M&l3jX DETI
HEW) AUGlJST 5, 1960 AT 3:OO P.M. AT 2698 S'I%TE STREET, C&LsBAD, CAIJFORNIA:
President Kelly called the meeting to order at 3:OO P.M. with Directors Camohan, Coe,
Greek and Maerkle answering,roll call. Attorney Swirsky, Engineer Clayton, Superintedel
Tucker, Report Larry Liedman of the Blade-Tribune, and office secretary were also presel
The Secretary introduced an executed copy of a notice of special meeting, with an a$€;-
davit of mailing executed by Evelyn Lund that a true copy of said notice had been maile(
to all members of the board and all persons requesting notice in accordance with Govern-
ment Code Section 54956 of the State of California, on August 4, 1960. the executed cq
of the notice and the affidavit of mailing are attached to the minutes hereto.
The president stated the purpose of thisheeting was to get together and go Over the ag:
ment made with Boyle Engineering on Improvement District No. 3. He stated that Directo:
Carnohan had questioned some items in this that was .already engineered or would be engio
neered by other Companies, andhe felt it would be better for the board and engineer to g
together and thrash this out. He requested Director Carnohan to take the floor.
Director Carnohan stated he had received some comment verging on criticism in the handlj
of this deal. He said he had talked to some people who are retired who have done this
kind of work for years and who know-the ins and outs, and he felt it was his duty to re-
port this to the board and to the engineer, and warranted re-operning and going into thj
agreement a little further.
1. Director Carnohan stated one of the outstanding items on this particular contract it
the fact that thks Improvement District No. 3 consists mainly of the main, which was tht
original line engineered previously. Everything had to be engineered in order to draw I
the master plan. The engineer already had located this line and knows where it is and
has records in his office. He said it seemed to him the District should have some cons:
tion for the fact that the engineer did not have to come into virgin territory. The acl
cost to the District should be where the lines take off.
2. Director Carnohan said he believed there were 5 storage tanks shown for Improvement
District #3 and these are all standard. According to his understanding all the engineel
has to do is to tell the steel people where they are to be installed and specify the si:
Director Carnohan asked the engineer what percentage of the construction cost these tank
represented and the engineer replied 20% to 30%. Director Carnohan said if they were
figured at say 25%, this would be $200,000.00 of the construction cost.
Director Carnohan further stated he wasn't too familiar with the procedures the engineex
had to do on each job but asked if a certain mount of the standards hadn't already beer
worked out, and wasn't it a duplication of previous work. They already know what the
District wants and the size of the line and should they be charged for that.
The engineer stated that in regards first to the tanks, it is not the case that you siml
tell the contractor such and such a size to be installed in a given area, for a number c
reasons. He said a lot of engineering work has to be done first before putting the tanl
out for bid. There is the necessary field survey to determine what the ground looks lil
access roads; proper drainage facilities; inlet and outlet pipe, etc. This is all engiI
ing the tank people don't do. Also, there is the earthwork engineering which amounts tc
about 20%.
He said each tank company have standard designs which are geared to their particular tyl
of manufacture. You have to get competitive bids on these tanks and with different tanl
companies bidding different types of tanks you have to furnish them with drawings and
Specifications before he can say that this tank -fits the job that is needed. He futher
stated his firm had in general standard specifications and designs of tanks. They have
more or less developed their own tank. He admitted they take short cuts but in additior
just buying the steel, a lot of other things are important and over the years they,have
up with a standard in tanks. There is the thickness to be determined of the steel, the
painting of the tank, the erection, saxdblasting, testing and other things.
The engineer said the point he was trying to make on the tanks was that it wasn't a roul
operation. In addition to the engineering work done they also have to consult the diffe
steel companies, solve delivery problems and work with them in general.
President Kelly said he could see the need for engineering in order to get a uniform bic
Either you are going to do the engineering so that everybody who bids will have to builc
the tank a certain way, or give out the word you want a tank and that they are going to
do the engineering. They can offer any kind of a tank that will hold that much water.
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It means you are getting bids on this kind of tank and you have to make up your mind wh,
YOU want. He said he could see why you have to have engineering so that the various
companies can bid on it realistically, but wondered whether there wasn't a little build
up--a lot of dollars that is still company engineering. He felt there was a lot of eng:
ing that.the engineer did not have dto do in order that the steel companies can all bid
on this.
The engineer replied the engineering time was spent actually designing the lines that
actually go into the tank, where you bring your pipe, etc. into the reservoir and where
you take the drainage out, valves, etc. He stated there was a lot of detail work on it
"President Kelly stated he realized costs had gone up on everything.but the board wanted I be sure that what's done here is done fair and just to all.
The engineer said one other thing he wanted to point out which presents a problem to th
As a matter of interest he checked and found their costs since 1955 have gone up on the
order of 30%. Construction costs in the same period have not gone up in that order. AI
the moment they are donw. In San Marcos .on a bid that was bid three weeks ago they boul
15,000 feet of 6" transite in place for $3.05. In 1955 they bought 6" transite for s3.t:
Director Carnohan pointed out to the engineer he thought his firm should be more interec
in a larger volume of business and continue on a lesser basis of profit, and he just fel
the agreement was too high.
Director Maerkle asked the sizes of the 5 tanks and asked why itjwouldn't be feasible tc
make the tanks all one size and maybe the steel people could give a better bid if they i
all the same size.
The engineer said these tanks were all field fabricated.
Director Carnohan stated if the steel people are a little bit hungry they might bid on three quarter million tanks at the same price as the smaller tanks. They may be willin;
take a little less profit: in order to get the work. He said by the same token it might
well if the engineer made less profit on this deal rather than not have it at all. He
said he felt there was a lot of blue sky in it and felt the District was entitled to thJ
consideration from his company.
The engineer stated he had some risks involved here too. In other words he said he had
estimated what these field surveys were going to cost basing it on recent experiences 01
what he considered to be similar jobs. He said from the standpoint of money, his compar
gives .a better product than they did three or four years ago. They have had additional
experience.
Director Carnohan asked the engineerwhat risk they were taking. He said he felt the on:
risk was in the percentage. The engineer replied he had estimated this job is going to
cost $800,000.00. If, as has been discussed earlier, the contractors are hungry, let's
say the job bids for $600,000.00, he would lose a quarter of his anticipated fee.
Director Carnohan asked the engineer what kind of a fixed fee basis he could offer. Thc
engineer replied he would make a fixed fee price of $71,200.00 for the job.
After discussion, the board said the above figure was still too high and the engineer tl
said he would take 5% off from the aboye figure, and take the element of risk on a low
bid coming in.
Director Carnohan stated he thought the engineering should be done for $50,000.00, takir
into consideration these tanks and all the other engineering fees the District had paid
in the past. dThe engineer stated he could not possibly take the job for $50,000.00.
It was then suggested to the engineer that he consider doing the work for 8.1% and take
from this figure based on a $800,000.00 contract.
Director Carnohan said he wanted to know the exact amount it was going to cost the Dist~
He said he felt the engineer should give a break for the previous work that had been do1
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and not keep charging over and over for the same thing and he felt now was the time to (
Director Coe said with reference to the previous engineering costs, that normally speak:
from a professionals standpoint, most all of these professional men charge a percentage
for each job that is done and that he would go along with the engineer. Their percenta;
is based on each job. They may have done some engineering work on the master plan, but
any professional man who works on a percentage basis usually charges a percentage of thl
total cost.
He said with reference to the steel tanks, he was not too familiar with that but even t'
the tank company does a certain percentage of the engineering, they still have to have
specifications, etc., in order to bid on the tanks. He said he felt as far as a flat f
fee was concerned itjcould cost the District more than the amount set up in the origina
agreement, and he felt the percentage as set up in the agreement was not more than the
District paid on Improvement District #2 a little over two years ago, and he would be
willing to go along with the engineer on this percentage basis.
After lengthy discussion by the board, President Kelly asked the engineer if he would c
sider a set fee of 7%. The engineer replied he would if the staking was taken out: of t
agreement and have the contractor do the staking. In fact he would make the overall pe
centage offer of 6.6% and the contractor has to do the staking.
Director Coe said he would stick to his original statement. President Kelly said hejwo
vote to go to the 6.6% and the contractor do the staking. Director Greek said he would
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be in favor of doing this,
Director Carnohan said he still was not in favor of a percentage fee and was in favor 0:
a fixed fee in order to know the exact amount it was going to cost the District.
After lengthy discussion between the board and the engineer, the engineer said he would
do the job for a fixed fee of $%60,000.00 and do the staking. Director Carnohan said he
would vote for a fixed fee of $58,000.00 and nothing more.
After consideration the engineer stated he would do the work for $58,000.00 to include
staking and per diem basis for rights of way work.
After discussion, upon motion of Director Carnohan, seconded by Director Maerkle, it wa,
moved the engineering agreement be accepted on the basis of a fixed fee of $58,000.00 tl
include the staking and per diem basis for the rights of way work. President Kelly cal
for a vote, with the following results: I AYES: Directors Kelly, Carnohan, Greek and Maerkle
NOES: Director Coe
and stated the motion was carried 4 to 1.
The meeting was adjourned at 4:50 P.M.
CARLSBAD MUNICIPAL WATERDI~~ICT
ATTEST :
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." .: :..-:'A/>., ,& Pd! rl . -L,.d I_
Secretary of the Board of Directors
CARLSBAD MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRICT
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August 4, 1960
TO ALL DIRECTORS OF CAlUSBAD MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRICT,
ADDRESSED INDIVIDUALLY TO EACH OF THE DIRECTORS LISTED
BELOW :
Dear Director:
The undersigned, as President of the Board of Directors
of Carlsbad Municipal Water District hereby calls a
special meeting of said Board to be held Friday, August
5, 1960 at 3:OO P.M. at 2698 State Street, Carlsbad,
California.
The purpose of said meeting is in reference to engineering
agreement and preliminary drawings on Improvement District
No. 3, and to consider any other current business of said
District.
CARLSBAD MUNICIPAL WA~R DISTRICT
DIRECTORS :
Allan 0. Kelly, President
Mac Carnohan, Vice-president
Richard R. Coe, Secretary
Wesley F . Greek, Treasurer
Fred Maerkle, Director
CC: Carlsbad Journal
Blade Tribune
Boyle Engineering
P. S. Swirsky
San Diego Union
STATE OF CALIFORNIA:
: ss.
COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO:
I I am a citizen and a resident of the county aforesaid; I
am over the age of eighteen years; my business address is 2698 State
Street, Carlsbad, California. On the 4th. day of August, 1960, I
served a copy of the attached Wotice of Special Meeting of Board of
Directors of Carlsbad Municipal Water District on the following
parties by placing a true copy thereof enclosed in a sealed envelope
with postage thereon fully prepaid, in the United States Post Office
mail box at Carlsbad, California, addressed to the following:
Allan 0. Kelly
P. 0. Box 335
Carlsbad, California
Richard Coe
522 Tamarack
Carlsbad, California
Mac C arnohan
1470 Avacado Road
Carlsbad, California
Wesley F. Greek
860 Buena Vista Gardens
Carlsbad, California
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Fred Maerkle Paul Swirsky
5032 Calle Tierra Del Oro 580 Elm Avenue
Carlsbad , California Carlsbad, California
Les Clayton Carlsbad Journal
Boyle Engineering P. 0. Box 248
3913 Ohio, Room 200 Carlsbad, California
San Diego, California
Blade-Tribune Bill Parry
403 1st. San Diego Union
Oceanside, California 940 - 3rd.
San Diego, California
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Dated: August 4, 1960
I certify (or declare), under penalty of
perjury, that the foregoing is true and
correct .